Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#101

Post by rayiner » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:25 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #8

No shit. Public school is all about teaching to the tests. There's no time to actually learn anything useful , because everything is focused on bringing up the state test scores, which influence funding. Not only are you spending all this time teaching what is going to be on the standardized test, and how to structure essays and do your work according to what the test graders expect, but there's the two weeks taken o…

Five paragraph essays are way more important than home ec or shop or literature.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#102

Post by rdtsc » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:25 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #96

rdtsc wrote: post #25

Another negative side effect is it discourages good teachers. A neighbor told me how he wanted to be a science teacher in highschool. He shadowed one of the older science teachers and was basically discouraged by what he found out from them -- the advice was "you don't get to actaully teach much fun or interesting stuff, just teach to the test" Or put it another way, think about the people who would choose to teach k…

I think it is important to remember why testing came about. Bad schools were doing so bad that kids were graduating HS without the ability to read or do basic math. In order to fix a problem this bad, first measurements have to be taken. My biggest problem with testing is that it can hold back gifted students.

But why are most schools spending almost all their time teaching to the test so to speak. Were all of them miserable failures before?

Why couldn't they just focus on underperforming school and investigagte what is happening there (probably poverty, crime, bad home environments if I had to guess...).

I also don't understand the idea of relating budgets to test scores. It is like they want schools to fail on purpose -- "Looks like you are struggling here with teaching these kids, ok, well we'll cut your budget, that should help..."

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#103

Post by teaneedz » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:25 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #8

No shit. Public school is all about teaching to the tests. There's no time to actually learn anything useful , because everything is focused on bringing up the state test scores, which influence funding. Not only are you spending all this time teaching what is going to be on the standardized test, and how to structure essays and do your work according to what the test graders expect, but there's the two weeks taken o…

Spot on. Since we've been homeschooling, education has become an enjoyable experience once more with the exception of mandated standardized testing. I'm glad that California put a pause on the CAHSEEs because from personal experience, it just doesn't serve a real world practical need. Too many questions are just worded so poorly and often designed to trick students. I've been through the public school system and did quite well. I'm glad not to be forcing someone's antiquated testing and grading philosophies in our home now.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#104

Post by themartorana » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #70

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions, studying previous years, knowing exactly what you can sacrifice coverage of, how to guess multiple choice questions when you don't know the answer etc. Basically over-optimizing to fit an imperfect model. Now, I'm a good test taker generally, and it has alw…

>"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions... Sure, if you're an incompetent teacher. But then maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be teaching at all.

Says someone with I'm guessing no teaching experience, and no background in education.

Teach the test, get better scores... Better teacher? Not likely.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#105

Post by tboyd47 » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:34 PM UTC

336f5 wrote: post #82

tboyd47 wrote: post #78

I tutor my little brother-in-law sometimes (he's 9), and I like to deprogram him from public school testing culture as much as possible. I tell him that when he's with me and he doesn't know the answer, don't guess. Just say, "I don't know." And I test him, too. I ask him questions he can't possibly know the answer to, or questions that have no right answer, just to hear him say, "I don't know." And then I congratula…

Test motivation differs from person to person, so if you don't encourage everyone to at least try every question and guess, you'll get differences in scores which don't reflect the child's difference in knowledge (which is what the test is trying to measure) so much as willingness to try or guess. This willingness can differ systematically so you might get drastically lower scores for poorer children than they should…

I'm not saying there aren't any valid reasons for doing it. I'm just saying the there's a "meta-lesson" there that has to be corrected. I want all my kids to grow up knowing that there's no shame in saying "I don't know," if you honestly don't know. Life is not a sounding smart contest.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#106

Post by acdha » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #70

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions, studying previous years, knowing exactly what you can sacrifice coverage of, how to guess multiple choice questions when you don't know the answer etc. Basically over-optimizing to fit an imperfect model. Now, I'm a good test taker generally, and it has alw…

>"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions... Sure, if you're an incompetent teacher. But then maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be teaching at all.

You're making a number of bad assumptions:

1. The test actually covers what's important

2. The teacher has the time, resources and support needed to fully convey the material to every student

3. The teacher and the school are receiving students who are realistically capable of reaching the expected level

4. The test results will be interpreted in good faith and used only to help students and teachers perform better

In the U.S. public education system, years of simplistic fixes have largely ensured that none of those are true. Instead there are vicious feedback loops: unprepared students will do worse on tests, which is held against the teachers and school no matter how hard they were trying, which leads the most motivated parents to take their kids elsewhere and the best teachers to leave teaching or find another school or district where their efforts are appreciated. After a few iterations, the district may close the “failing” school and make life even harder for kids who now have the same problems plus a more of their day commuting to a school where they'll probably bear the stigma of having come from a bad school/neighborhood.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#107

Post by analog31 » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #51

smelendez wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some of the arguments I've seen: -- testing itself takes a lot of time away from instruction, sometimes days at a time for each of multiple tests. -- In addition to learning the material that's officially tested by an exam, students are forced to study the idiosyncracies of the exam: how questions are phrased, how graders expect to see written answers, etc. That takes more time away from studying actual curr…

So suppose you have a test which covers reading, writing and arithmetic only (3R). Assuming the teacher has already effectively taught 3R, and has time to spare, there is nothing to prevent them from teaching black history. If the teacher hasn't effectively taught 3R with time to spare, I'd suggest that black history is a topic of far less import than 3R and the teacher should skip it. This stresses teachers out at t…

So suppose you have a test which covers reading, writing and arithmetic only (3R). Assuming the teacher has already effectively taught 3R, and has time to spare, there is nothing to prevent them from teaching black history.

The problem is that the test doesn't just offer a pass-fail threshold, but is graded on a sliding scale, which means that so long as there is a chance of increasing the class average, kids will continue to be drilled on the test topics, over and over again.

My kids were sent home with worksheet after worksheet of basic arithmetic problems, long after they had completely mastered those skills.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#108

Post by gizmo686 » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #101

douche wrote: post #8

No shit. Public school is all about teaching to the tests. There's no time to actually learn anything useful , because everything is focused on bringing up the state test scores, which influence funding. Not only are you spending all this time teaching what is going to be on the standardized test, and how to structure essays and do your work according to what the test graders expect, but there's the two weeks taken o…

Five paragraph essays are way more important than home ec or shop or literature.

Reading (good) literature does more for your writing abilities than learning about five paragraph essays. That is not to say that you do not need to practice writing, just that five paragraph essays are not a good way to practice.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#109

Post by tboyd47 » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:39 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #97

tboyd47 wrote: post #78

I tutor my little brother-in-law sometimes (he's 9), and I like to deprogram him from public school testing culture as much as possible. I tell him that when he's with me and he doesn't know the answer, don't guess. Just say, "I don't know." And I test him, too. I ask him questions he can't possibly know the answer to, or questions that have no right answer, just to hear him say, "I don't know." And then I congratula…

Are you sure it's a guessing bonus? I teach the LSAT. On that test, there's no guessing penalty, and you get a point for a correct answer. So, if you guess five questions, on average you'll get a point, making each guess statistically worth about .2 But guesses don't have actual value of course, it's only when you guess right that you get the points. I can't speak for the grade school standardized tests since I don't…

You could be right. I'm not sure.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#110

Post by acdha » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #51

smelendez wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some of the arguments I've seen: -- testing itself takes a lot of time away from instruction, sometimes days at a time for each of multiple tests. -- In addition to learning the material that's officially tested by an exam, students are forced to study the idiosyncracies of the exam: how questions are phrased, how graders expect to see written answers, etc. That takes more time away from studying actual curr…

So suppose you have a test which covers reading, writing and arithmetic only (3R). Assuming the teacher has already effectively taught 3R, and has time to spare, there is nothing to prevent them from teaching black history. If the teacher hasn't effectively taught 3R with time to spare, I'd suggest that black history is a topic of far less import than 3R and the teacher should skip it. This stresses teachers out at t…

> tl;dr; Teachers are unprofessional and just generally horrible people who inflict their problems onto innocent third parties.

… and you have the peer-reviewed studies to prove that an entire field is full of unqualified bad-actors? Or is this just the casual, unthinking racism implied by your decision to use “black history” as your example rather than, say, music or science and the corresponding assumption that it's some how distinct from and less important than “history” rather than being an essential component?