Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#91

Post by hga » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #79

epalmer wrote: post #61

In addition to the in-school teach to the test problem the focus on SAT and ACT tests for college admissions is also a really big problem. For the kids lucky enough to consider college, the fact remains that parents can throw money at SAT test preparation and get test score improvements in the 100 point range and more. I know because I have done this. When I took the SAT in 1970 no one got assistance via test prepara…

In the early 70s, we had some level of SAT preparation including the pre-SATs (forget what they were called). However, my impression is that standardized testing prep has certainly increased--as has the level of competition to get into top schools. One of the problems with de-emphasizing standard tests for college admissions is that they do a pretty good job at predicting college success (assuming that's your goal).…

One of the problems with de-emphasizing standard tests for college admissions is that they do a pretty good job at predicting college success

Maybe. The SAT has become so watered down that the ACT, which MIT didn't accept back when I was playing this game in the late '70s, now has more predictive power for success at MIT.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#92

Post by matwood » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

6d0debc071 wrote: post #77

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the people who don't need to realize that a 20% discount on $37.50 is $30, why bother sending them to school past 6th grade at all? Now that I see your argument more fully, it seems less like an argument against testing and more like an argument against wasting resources on unneeded education. Do you believe the people who don't need the specific topics you mention actually do need education beyond grade 6? If so…

> For the people who don't need to realize that a 20% discount on $37.50 is $30, why bother sending them to school past 6th grade at all? Now that I see your argument more fully, it seems less like an argument against testing and more like an argument against wasting resources on unneeded education. Do you believe the people who don't need the specific topics you mention actually do need education beyond grade 6? If…

> Frequent standardised tests; testing the same things across all the schools and all the students; using that as your measuring stick, shapes the fact that you're going to get a lot of unneeded, even harmful, education.

Harmful? Really? Please tell what harmful education is coming out of standardized tests. Even the standard test taking strategy itself is useful in a general sense. You don't know the solution so narrow down to ones that seem reasonable, pick one and move on.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#93

Post by rch » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

epalmer wrote: post #61

In addition to the in-school teach to the test problem the focus on SAT and ACT tests for college admissions is also a really big problem. For the kids lucky enough to consider college, the fact remains that parents can throw money at SAT test preparation and get test score improvements in the 100 point range and more. I know because I have done this. When I took the SAT in 1970 no one got assistance via test prepara…

Based on your experience working in higher education, would you say that the SAT in its current form is as effective a test as the version you took in the 1970's?

My perception is that scores have become more correlated with money spent on test preparation, and less correlated with actual aptitude.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#94

Post by themartorana » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:10 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #8

No shit. Public school is all about teaching to the tests. There's no time to actually learn anything useful , because everything is focused on bringing up the state test scores, which influence funding. Not only are you spending all this time teaching what is going to be on the standardized test, and how to structure essays and do your work according to what the test graders expect, but there's the two weeks taken o…

Came here to say "no shit," beaten to it, because it's the most obvious conclusion.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#95

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

6d0debc071 wrote: post #77

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the people who don't need to realize that a 20% discount on $37.50 is $30, why bother sending them to school past 6th grade at all? Now that I see your argument more fully, it seems less like an argument against testing and more like an argument against wasting resources on unneeded education. Do you believe the people who don't need the specific topics you mention actually do need education beyond grade 6? If so…

> For the people who don't need to realize that a 20% discount on $37.50 is $30, why bother sending them to school past 6th grade at all? Now that I see your argument more fully, it seems less like an argument against testing and more like an argument against wasting resources on unneeded education. Do you believe the people who don't need the specific topics you mention actually do need education beyond grade 6? If…

If you were a parent, and you couldn't afford to educate your child yourself, then it would probably still make sense to send your child to school beyond grade 6. If you don't do so, they won't have the qualifications to get by particularly well in life...

My rebuttal: Your secretary does not need to know (taken from the sheets you posted) what an angle given by a line bisecting two parallel lines is...These things all have a use, but they don't have a use to everyone...

Your idealistic answer seems to argue for changing the relevant topics. That's fine. That's an argument against the curriculum, not testing. All testing does is measure whether the curriculum is actually being taught.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#96

Post by matwood » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:15 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #25

Another negative side effect is it discourages good teachers. A neighbor told me how he wanted to be a science teacher in highschool. He shadowed one of the older science teachers and was basically discouraged by what he found out from them -- the advice was "you don't get to actaully teach much fun or interesting stuff, just teach to the test" Or put it another way, think about the people who would choose to teach k…

I think it is important to remember why testing came about. Bad schools were doing so bad that kids were graduating HS without the ability to read or do basic math. In order to fix a problem this bad, first measurements have to be taken.

My biggest problem with testing is that it can hold back gifted students.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#97

Post by graeme » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:19 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #78

I tutor my little brother-in-law sometimes (he's 9), and I like to deprogram him from public school testing culture as much as possible. I tell him that when he's with me and he doesn't know the answer, don't guess. Just say, "I don't know." And I test him, too. I ask him questions he can't possibly know the answer to, or questions that have no right answer, just to hear him say, "I don't know." And then I congratula…

Are you sure it's a guessing bonus? I teach the LSAT. On that test, there's no guessing penalty, and you get a point for a correct answer.

So, if you guess five questions, on average you'll get a point, making each guess statistically worth about .2

But guesses don't have actual value of course, it's only when you guess right that you get the points.

I can't speak for the grade school standardized tests since I don't teach those (nor do I want to).

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#98

Post by epalmer » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

rch wrote: post #93

epalmer wrote: post #61

In addition to the in-school teach to the test problem the focus on SAT and ACT tests for college admissions is also a really big problem. For the kids lucky enough to consider college, the fact remains that parents can throw money at SAT test preparation and get test score improvements in the 100 point range and more. I know because I have done this. When I took the SAT in 1970 no one got assistance via test prepara…

Based on your experience working in higher education, would you say that the SAT in its current form is as effective a test as the version you took in the 1970's? My perception is that scores have become more correlated with money spent on test preparation, and less correlated with actual aptitude.

So I don't work directly with the admissions process (I run the public web) but as a parent I see the correlation with money spent. Also I've had conversations with the SAT preparation consultant that we used for both girls and the degree to which preparation classes or one-on-one consultation helps is dramatic at least at her firm. I know this to be true because of the feedback from other parents that we recommended.

The funny thing is that one of the highest correlations with college retention, as compared to just getting admitted, is how the student feels when the visit the campus. If they feel like they will fit it they have a much higher retention rate.

Because of this colleges track visits to their campus for campus tours and some factor that in at least when courting the prospects.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#99

Post by themartorana » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:24 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #85

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions, studying previous years, knowing exactly what you can sacrifice coverage of, how to guess multiple choice questions when you don't know the answer etc. Basically over-optimizing to fit an imperfect model. Now, I'm a good test taker generally, and it has alw…

I don't think that disagrees with me: yes, schools should teach a general understanding, rather than drilling a narrow toolbox that works on one specific test. But then: - As I said above, you would need to cite which test question are game-able, and which encourage this narrow teaching, which critics never do. - If the problem is that teachers try to satisfy this goal by trying to game the tests, then the problem is…

"From September until Christmas vacation, [Brookside] was like any school you would imagine. Then, once they got back from Christmas break, for the next nine weeks until testing began, it was a different animal. What they did was drop their curriculum, drop their texts, and instead study exclusively from a standardized-test prep book. Kids weren't getting a liberal arts education, but prepping to a very narrowly drawn standardized test in primarily language arts and math. Because they were interested in passing the test more than anything else, for that 22 percent of the school year, they taught primarily to the broad middle section of kids that were going to pass. Plus, the school went and reached out to those kids who they thought were on the cusp of possibly passing. So who gets left out? The kids at the bottom and the kids at the top." [0]

It's not the tests per se, but it's what is put on the line. Raises, funding, evaluations, keeping your job - these are all disincentives to well-rounded education. Please don't make me quote the plethora of studies that show how important arts, literature, and the sciences are to primary education. Completely stopping studying these things for half the school year is bad.

So it doesn't matter if the tests are filled with good-to-know knowledge - they're positioned to dis-incentivize and devalue anything that isn't math, language arts, and a narrow reading of how to structure an essay.

[0] http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2013/04/11/why-excess...

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#100

Post by SilasX » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 5:24 PM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #38

SilasX wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether that's good or bad depends entirely on the content of the tests. You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" If no, then it's fair to criticize them for having to spend time teaching this, and instead achieve a lower proficiency but teach a broader skill set. But if yes, then any criticism of "teaching for the test" falls flat: this is stuff students need to be able to…

Don't you think there's a qualitative difference involved in teaching for the purpose of instilling enough knowledge to pass an exam, versus teaching to instill a passion for the material? Making dioramas, drawing political cartoons, and wearing togas while reciting Mark Antony's speech from Julius Caesar were the kinds of things that kept me motivated to read and understand material in which I held no innate interes…

It's far more important that students can add than that they got to goof around in togas. Ideal world? They can do both. But if they can't do the math, then the togas just have to wait.