Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#41

Post by jessedhillon » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 10:42 AM UTC

japhyr wrote: post #5

forrestthewoods wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This made me pause and think for a moment. What do rich kid schools do? I have no idea. I went to a dumb kid rural high school. But for some reason through the endless education discussion I've never heard brought up what rich kid schools do differently. Even if the answer is "but we can't do that because we're poor". Man. Now you've got me all curious...

One thing "rich kid schools" do is filter out many students who are difficult to teach. Teaching and running a school is a lot easier if your goal does not involve teaching everyone who walks through your doors.

That doesn't account for all of the difference. I went to public HS in rural Sacramento county, while some friends of mine went to the public schools in nearby Folsom -- a very wealthy suburb. These were public, like I said, so they don't have that selectivity you mentioned: if you live in their district, you go there.

"Just" the facts of very interested parents, investment from nearby Intel and HP, and massive spending on technology programs were enough to set this school apart. Sometimes the simple answer is the right one.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#42

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 10:42 AM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #26

douche wrote: post #8

No shit. Public school is all about teaching to the tests. There's no time to actually learn anything useful , because everything is focused on bringing up the state test scores, which influence funding. Not only are you spending all this time teaching what is going to be on the standardized test, and how to structure essays and do your work according to what the test graders expect, but there's the two weeks taken o…

Whether that's good or bad depends entirely on the content of the tests. You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" If no, then it's fair to criticize them for having to spend time teaching this, and instead achieve a lower proficiency but teach a broader skill set. But if yes, then any criticism of "teaching for the test" falls flat: this is stuff students need to be able to…

[deleted]

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#43

Post by jwdunne » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 10:47 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #32

jwdunne wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, I've seen richer parents simply send their children who didn't not meet private school's admissions and performance requirements to state school (the one I attended!) whilst their siblings passed the requirements and remained at the private school. I remember two kids from primary school seemed to have disappeared and then reappeared a few months down the line from school year start. They didn't make the c…

That's somewhat disheartening: it suggests that it isn't a problem that can be solved by throwing more money at it.

It's not. Private schools I've heard of and experienced have strong academic selection criteria on top of being incredibly expensive.

My son had funding for a time for nursery and was moved into the prep school. It was like seeing a foreign school. Class sizes were naturally smaller and I noted things such as their morning 'prayer', which went along the lines of "I vow to work hard today in everything I do", where as my morning prayer in an RC school was the Our Father.

I also saw kids in my sons class who, at 3 years old, were able to compute divisions in their head and articulate in a way that I've never seen a child that age speak.

These places are optimised for kids who have a lot of money backing them up and the brain power to boot. In some respects, their parents ability to simply hire help to ensure their kids do well academically must be noted too.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#44

Post by rcthompson » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 10:58 AM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #26

douche wrote: post #8

No shit. Public school is all about teaching to the tests. There's no time to actually learn anything useful , because everything is focused on bringing up the state test scores, which influence funding. Not only are you spending all this time teaching what is going to be on the standardized test, and how to structure essays and do your work according to what the test graders expect, but there's the two weeks taken o…

Whether that's good or bad depends entirely on the content of the tests. You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" If no, then it's fair to criticize them for having to spend time teaching this, and instead achieve a lower proficiency but teach a broader skill set. But if yes, then any criticism of "teaching for the test" falls flat: this is stuff students need to be able to…

Standardized tests measure students' ability to take standardized tests. This loosely correlates with their knowledge and understanding of the subject matter, and correlates more tightly with knowledge of test-taking strategies specific to the test they are taking. So no, most of what students need to know to pass the tests is not useful real-world knowledge.

To put it another way, knowing the material is not the easiest way to pass the test, so even if the test nominally evaluates useful real-world knowledge, a high score won't guarantee that a student actually possesses that knowledge.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#45

Post by zo1 » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 11:40 AM UTC

mamon wrote: post #35

In Poland we have three levels of schools: 6 years elementary, 3 years middle and 3 years high school. There are three standard tests done at the end of each level, which are the basis for the admission to the next level school. I don't see the point of making more standard tests than that - it's just an unnecessary distraction. And yes, with Polish system you also waste some time (usually last semester) for teachers…

You have this in English-based schools as well. 7 + 4 + 2 years. Primary, lower and upper sections of the last 6 years of high-school, respectively.

Even though the tests are only towards the ends of the level, most of the time prior to it is spent teaching for it as well. Except for primary, I think you get to pass that no matter what, unless there is something seriously deficient in your knowledge.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#46

Post by Kequc » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 11:42 AM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #36

finance-geek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, "difficult to teach" often just means kids who have not had a proper meal the previous night because their family cannot afford it. Try paying attention when you are chronically hungry and you understand one of many problems very easily.

Uh huh. How many of those kids are there, you figure, on a percentage basis?

I just did some wikipedia sleuthing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#P...

> The US Census declared that in 2010 15.1% of the general population lived in poverty: 22% of all people under age 18 13.7% of all people 19–21 and 9% of all people ages 65 and older.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#47

Post by zo1 » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 11:45 AM UTC

finance-geek wrote: post #33

tsotha wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "difficult to teach" you mean kids who cause problems for the other kids, then yeah. I went to a Catholic high school, and they did not tolerate disruptions. That allowed them to have classes with almost 50 kids and still have better than 95% of the graduating class going on to a four year college.

No, "difficult to teach" often just means kids who have not had a proper meal the previous night because their family cannot afford it. Try paying attention when you are chronically hungry and you understand one of many problems very easily.

That's what foodstamps, child-aid, etc are all for. Every country has it under different names. There are even soup-kitchens all over the place for the needy.

That, and they get free meals at the schools themselves.

If you want to use such excuses for disruptive students, then you have to actually fix the real problem. Vote for it. Petition for it. Protest. Call for a referendum.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#48

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 11:47 AM UTC

23 hours a year is "overwhelming"? That's 40 minutes/week, assuming a 36 week school year.

In other news, I'm overwhelmed by brushing my teeth.

Incidentally, since I'm sure a bunch of people will spout the "teaching to the test" slogan, I'd love it if someone could look at these real tests and explain how to teach to them without improving student learning. Somehow I suspect not, because real tests are actually reasonably well designed and "teaching to the test" is actually just "teaching".

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqmath7.pdf http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/Mathematics/20100505book1... http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/EnglishLanguageArts/04261...

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#49

Post by Omnus » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 11:53 AM UTC

coupdejarnac wrote: post #9

forrestthewoods wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This made me pause and think for a moment. What do rich kid schools do? I have no idea. I went to a dumb kid rural high school. But for some reason through the endless education discussion I've never heard brought up what rich kid schools do differently. Even if the answer is "but we can't do that because we're poor". Man. Now you've got me all curious...

I attended a private Catholic prep school. One thing we didn't waste much time on was standardized testing. In my five years at the school, I only recall taking one standardized test, aside from the sat/ act.

Well of course you didn't - the school's funding didn't depend on taking tests. That's the point of this whole discussion.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#50

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 11:57 AM UTC

6d0debc071 wrote: post #39

SilasX wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether that's good or bad depends entirely on the content of the tests. You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" If no, then it's fair to criticize them for having to spend time teaching this, and instead achieve a lower proficiency but teach a broader skill set. But if yes, then any criticism of "teaching for the test" falls flat: this is stuff students need to be able to…

> You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" Uhm, I don't feel like I do? Or at least insofar as I do, that set feels like it should be really small, because: Which graduate? There are many things that we'd like a graduate to do, but we don't need for every graduate to be able to do. I would quite like my CS grads to understand big O notation - I would not attempt to teach it…

Here are some real standardized tests. Which students don't need to be able to answer "Roberto paid $43.08 for 3 CDs. All 3 CDs were the same price. How much did each CD cost?" Which students don't need to be able to compute 3 x (3/4)?

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqmath7.pdf

http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/Mathematics/20100505book1...

http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/EnglishLanguageArts/04261...

Since you seem to think the test covers too many topics, perhaps you can read it tell us concretely which ones should be removed?