Can You Get Smarter? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#51

Post by mikestew » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

marincounty wrote: post #23

kator wrote: post #13

My dad went from being an auto mechanic to learning to code when he was 63 and he's 77 now and argues with me about Drupal vs Joomla over dinner. It's only one sample but I'm convinced him switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably.

I'm not saying you do, but I have found the general public vastly underestimates the intelligence of many auto mechanics--especially today's mechanics. I guess they have always been an easy target in movies, etc.? I have a feeling your dad could learn anything if given the right structure. Mechanics are underpaid, expected to continually learn on their time, provide $20,000-30,000 grand worth of tools; and the owner…

Once-upon-a-time-time auto mechanic, long time software dev here. It's not just the owner making a living, when I was active it was a decent middle-class living (25 years ago, could be different now). I'm talking professional, can diagnose your problem without throwing parts at it, owns a torque wrench and knows how to use it, not the vocational school students you find at Jiffy Lube. No one I knew was making BMW payments on their salary, but plenty had a nice house in a nice suburb, and a boat or other toy for the weekend. I would have been content to keep at it, but I like making software, too.

It was fun, too; much like debugging code with your hands. Okay, what evidence do I have to work with? Of these several hypothesises, which are the most likely? And, just like code, sometimes you spend the afternoon going down what you thought was the right path only to find out you're wrong.

As with software, there are hot shots that just seem wired for the task, and there are those that can merely competently do the job without screwing it up (and, like software, there are those few you don't want anywhere near your stuff). Just like software, I was one of those that fell in the middle. :-)

Tell ya what though, unlike software, I had very few bad days as an auto mechanic. Decent money, I enjoyed the work, and when the weather was nice we open the bay doors and you're practically working outside. Rarely did anyone second-guess my decisions (and when they did, it was to make my job easier so I don't do it the hard way), and I rarely had to convince anyone of my estimates as we had a big book that already estimated how long a competent mechanic should take to do the job.

One big difference is that incompetence is harder to hide as an auto mechanic. You're not going to be doing any copy-pasta from StackOverflow when you're an auto mechanic.

Smart? Eh, like anything, it's hit or miss. Since the repair bays are right next to each other, and you don't have to expend a lot of cycles thinking through hash table algorithms, there's plenty of talking. Mechanics are a reflection of the general population, some guys (and they were all guys back then; girls worked up front behind the desk) I knew could probably write philosophy books, others probably won't be moving to Microsoft to write kernel code any time soon.

In summary, the public underestimates the intelligence of just about everyone but themselves, so mechanics don't get a pass. Nor do the mechanics care about what you think, at least this one didn't. I was happy where I was at at the time, I didn't need anyone's approval. And the money was good.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#52

Post by watchdogtimer » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 6:04 PM UTC

kator wrote: post #13

My dad went from being an auto mechanic to learning to code when he was 63 and he's 77 now and argues with me about Drupal vs Joomla over dinner. It's only one sample but I'm convinced him switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably.

The primary skill required to be a good auto mechanic is the same one required to be a good software developer: the ability to logically diagnose and solve a problem. The only difference is the tools you use to fix the problem.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#53

Post by eitally » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

mbritton72 wrote: post #32

marincounty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you do, but I have found the general public vastly underestimates the intelligence of many auto mechanics--especially today's mechanics. I guess they have always been an easy target in movies, etc.? I have a feeling your dad could learn anything if given the right structure. Mechanics are underpaid, expected to continually learn on their time, provide $20,000-30,000 grand worth of tools; and the owner…

The auto mechanics I've encountered are brilliant people. The next Nietzsche or Michelangelo will be an auto mechanic.

I sort of agree, as long as you flexibly include metal machining & welding in the skillset of your archetypal mechanic. Solving mechanical problems by fabbing stuff from nothing. That's pure wizardry to most folks.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#54

Post by goodJobWalrus » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

chdir wrote: post #46

kator wrote: post #13

My dad went from being an auto mechanic to learning to code when he was 63 and he's 77 now and argues with me about Drupal vs Joomla over dinner. It's only one sample but I'm convinced him switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably.

> learning to code when he was 63 > switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably I find this very interesting & uplifting. Would you be comfortable sharing more on what motivated him to switch careers at that age and your general observations throughout the process. I'm perhaps your age but I've experienced switching careers significantly is like hitting F5 in your life, or like a complete system re-…

"Switching careers" also implies that he found a job as a programmer. I imagine it's really difficult to convince someone to employ someone who is 60+ and just learned to code.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#55

Post by tomcam » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:40 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #49

TeMPOraL wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More imporantly, unless there's a hidden software in brain that responds precisely to that particular training, you'd expect that anything that can yield significant results by doing it 3x a week for 10 minutes would be already discovered purely by random chance.

6 weeks of effective 10min training is actually enough for some one that isn't training regularly. Do 10 min of pushups for 6 weeks and see for yourself.

Snap! I a very fat man who can do 45 pushups without stopping. The idea of going for 10 minutes is unfathomable to me. But more important, you really dropped that 10 minutes into perspective for me. Thank you.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#56

Post by ochoseis » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:48 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #51

marincounty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you do, but I have found the general public vastly underestimates the intelligence of many auto mechanics--especially today's mechanics. I guess they have always been an easy target in movies, etc.? I have a feeling your dad could learn anything if given the right structure. Mechanics are underpaid, expected to continually learn on their time, provide $20,000-30,000 grand worth of tools; and the owner…

Once-upon-a-time-time auto mechanic, long time software dev here. It's not just the owner making a living, when I was active it was a decent middle-class living (25 years ago, could be different now). I'm talking professional, can diagnose your problem without throwing parts at it, owns a torque wrench and knows how to use it, not the vocational school students you find at Jiffy Lube. No one I knew was making BMW pay…

> It was fun, too; much like debugging code with your hands. Okay, what evidence do I have to work with? Of these several hypothesises, which are the most likely? And, just like code, sometimes you spend the afternoon going down what you thought was the right path only to find out you're wrong.

Reminds me of reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#57

Post by dogma1138 » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:50 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #55

dogma1138 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 weeks of effective 10min training is actually enough for some one that isn't training regularly. Do 10 min of pushups for 6 weeks and see for yourself.

Snap! I a very fat man who can do 45 pushups without stopping. The idea of going for 10 minutes is unfathomable to me. But more important, you really dropped that 10 minutes into perspective for me. Thank you.

The number of push up doesn't matters, do an exercise for 10 min even if you can't do a single push up if you spend 10 min trying and resting and do it over 6 weeks while keeping to a single rule that you must improve (do at least 1 more) over the previous day you'll see quite an amazing improvement over a period of 6 weeks.

You can also do 5min of pushups, 5min situps can't drop much beyond that but still unless you are in stellar shape you'll see an improvement over 6 weeks (even 2 week).

I've seen plenty of people going from 0 pushups to 10-20 within a week by trying to do it daily for only a couple of minutes, like with most exercises the results of the first 4-8 weeks are the most noticeable.

That's of course doesn't mean that you can get into shape by spending 10min a day, but the for a single exercise that's more than enough when you spend 1-2 hours at a gym you rarely put in more than 10min per exercise unless it's aerobics.

So the brain analogy can hold because you are training your brain to do certain things, and you get better at it, it doesn't necessarily mean that you get smarted just that your brain gets more adapted to performing certain tasks. Solving sudoku is very hard at first but after several weeks of doing it daily you get quite good at solving such problems, same goes for crossword puzzles and other similar things.

P.S. On a psychological level that's one of the easiest ways to convince some one to do it because it takes nothing from them and they can see almost an immediate improvement dragging some one to the gym and forcing them to stick isn't easy, showing them that they can noticeably improve over weeks can give many people that moral boost they need to actually start investing more effort into it.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#58

Post by moonchrome » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:52 PM UTC

chdir wrote: post #46

kator wrote: post #13

My dad went from being an auto mechanic to learning to code when he was 63 and he's 77 now and argues with me about Drupal vs Joomla over dinner. It's only one sample but I'm convinced him switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably.

> learning to code when he was 63 > switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably I find this very interesting & uplifting. Would you be comfortable sharing more on what motivated him to switch careers at that age and your general observations throughout the process. I'm perhaps your age but I've experienced switching careers significantly is like hitting F5 in your life, or like a complete system re-…

>is like hitting F5 in your life

It starts your career in debug mode ?

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#59

Post by birbal » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:52 PM UTC

The nature vs nurture debate will go on. But I think the question needs to be framed differently. Its not about comparing one person with the other but the approach that best maximizes ones own potential. When framed this way, the answer becomes very clear - you have to believe that you can become smarter. This is not just blind belief but is practically the way brain works (neuroplasticity)and we see it every day. If you can learn to play the guitar at 60 means you can change your brain. I am sure there are 60 year olds who are smarter than 20 year olds just like there are 60 year olds who can run for longer than 20 year olds. As engineers we tend to downplay psychological factors compared to physiological factors. But the connection has been established beyond doubt in neuroscience. It hasn't gotten to a point where we can formulaically impact outcomes through calibrated intervention but the linkages are clear. Our definition of smartness is very narrow. Here is a conversation between a 50 year old scientist and a 70 year old poet https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/04/27/when-einstein-met-t...

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#60

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:57 PM UTC

watchdogtimer wrote: post #52

kator wrote: post #13

My dad went from being an auto mechanic to learning to code when he was 63 and he's 77 now and argues with me about Drupal vs Joomla over dinner. It's only one sample but I'm convinced him switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably.

The primary skill required to be a good auto mechanic is the same one required to be a good software developer: the ability to logically diagnose and solve a problem. The only difference is the tools you use to fix the problem.

I've heard similar stories about a plumber, which said the former plumber actually found programming fairly easy. I laughed at the IT profession.