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Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

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Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#31

Post by esailija »

no1ne wrote: post #30
esailija wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The myth is that the differences (in mental rotation ability) are innate or "biological", not that there is differences (in mental rotation ability) in the first place.

>> myth is that the differences are innate or "biological" erm...please read 1. Genomic differences between developing male and female brains in the womb-- http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150203190223.ht... and if you still feel that somehow humans try to gender stereotype whilst the fetus are still in the wombs, then read this also- 2.Sex differences in rhesus monkey toy preferences parallel those of ch…

I was referring to mental rotation ability, I clarified it in an edit.

I also don't have time to go into the studies you linked about general differences but similar studies have been debunked before. For example with 1.5 day old infants where the experimenters knew about the sex and their bias subtly corrupted the experiment and it did not reproduce when the bias was truly accounted for.

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#32

Post by abathur »

Avshalom wrote: post #7

I mean sure, yeah, but... https://hn.algolia.com/?query=changes%20brain&sort=byPopular... so does meditation, walking in nature, inactivity, porn, drugs, focus, menstruation, Alzheimer's, cellphones, the iInternet, The Knowledge, programming, football... changing it's structure is how the brain reacts to basically any regular stimulus. Thats how it works.

And, perhaps more curiously, I don't see any discussion in the release about the possibility of or attempts to control for what else might be changing in the life of someone _beginning hormone therapy as part of a gender-transition process_.

How much of the change they observe is caused by testosterone, and how much is the expectation that one is becoming more masculine (and the downstream behavioral changes/feedback loop created if the self is _noticing_ changes that reinforce this expectation?) This isn't to say the effect they observe isn't real, but the conclusion they've reached doesn't seem to follow from the methodology discussed in the release.

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#33

Post by WalterSear »

irremediable wrote: post #8
Avshalom wrote: post #7

I mean sure, yeah, but... https://hn.algolia.com/?query=changes%20brain&sort=byPopular... so does meditation, walking in nature, inactivity, porn, drugs, focus, menstruation, Alzheimer's, cellphones, the iInternet, The Knowledge, programming, football... changing it's structure is how the brain reacts to basically any regular stimulus. Thats how it works.

Agreed. Also, I've not read the paper yet, but I'll be very interested to see the effect size. Lots of sex differences neuroimaging papers rave about significance while ignoring the minuscule scale of effects.

Significance == publication, prestige, advancement

Effect power == bury it in the results, give it a one line 'yeah, we noticed that' in the discussion, so the publication reveiwer can't accuse you of missing something.

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#34

Post by abathur »

davess1 wrote: post #20
vlehto wrote: post #4

I have MtF friend. We knew each other when we still we're both officially men. We became roommates for a year when she was mid transition. I thought that would be cool, because I might understand women better now that I had somebody who had seen the both perspectives. How it is to be a man and how it is to be a woman. I was wrong. She had never understood anything about manhood. Now she didn't even pretend anymore. I…

Could you elaborate more? What are some of the differences she didn't understand?

I think the point vlehto is trying to make is:

He expected his friend, who he perceived as a "man", to have a particular kind of insight after the transition. Instead, he learned that his perception of the friend as a "man" was a projection. His friend would not have felt the need to transition if she felt she was a "man."

His friend could only provide more nuanced insights, because her experience was not that of a "man" becoming a "woman."

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#36

Post by [deleted] »

esailija wrote: post #19
BurningFrog wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely differences in both generic mental abilities and what fields interest people between the sexes. From an evolutionary biology perspective, it would be really weird if there weren't. To be clear, men and women are equally mentally gifted as a whole, but focused on different skills, and with bigger variance in men. Pinker's "Blank Slate" lays out the case well: http://www.amazon.com/The-Blank-Slate-…

You mean evolutionary psychology , not biology. The former is basically a pseudoscience and the latter makes no such claims.

[deleted]

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#37

Post by irremediable »

WalterSear wrote: post #33
irremediable wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Also, I've not read the paper yet, but I'll be very interested to see the effect size. Lots of sex differences neuroimaging papers rave about significance while ignoring the minuscule scale of effects.

Significance == publication, prestige, advancement Effect power == bury it in the results, give it a one line 'yeah, we noticed that' in the discussion, so the publication reveiwer can't accuse you of missing something.

Indeed. It's all too tempting -- I've often found myself overlooking it a bit in my own work. When appropriate, I try to summarise key numbers, significance tests and effect sizes all in one table to avoid that problem.

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#38

Post by oldmanjay »

esailija wrote: post #28
oldmanjay wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's a pretty big difference between "debunk[ing] the ... myth" and showing the effect is real and can be reduced via training. in particular, your second link says the differences are probably real in its conclusion!

The myth is that the differences (in mental rotation ability) are innate or "biological", not that there is differences (in mental rotation ability) in the first place.

If one gender displays innate ability and the other can be trained to match it, then the difference is not shown to be a myth. There is a very dishonest redefinition of a common word involved to make the meaning apply.

Political fictions are comfortable but don't really change facts, they just color interpretations. Mischaracterizing observation does not serve to make an argument appear stronger.

Note that none of this means women are inferior, and if you are construing my point to mean I am arguing for that position, you have imposed that on me.

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#39

Post by pygy_ »

BurningFrog wrote: post #26
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #6

Beautiful example of politics driving research. They only studied something they knew was a disadvantage for males, while the first thing everybody is curious about is how the IQ changed, if it changed: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/dr-paul-i...

It's a little weird to say males have higher IQ on average. As I understand it (I'm not an IQ expert, just some internet know-it-all), women score better on some categories of questions, as do men, so when you put together a test, you try to make sure it balances out so both get the same average.

AFAIK the average is the same, but males have a higher variance, meaning that they are more likely to be found at the dumber and smarter ends of the population, while there are more women of average intelligence.

Re: Research: testosterone changes brain structures in female-to-male transsexuals [pdf]

#40

Post by coldtea »

abathur wrote: post #34
davess1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate more? What are some of the differences she didn't understand?

I think the point vlehto is trying to make is: He expected his friend, who he perceived as a "man", to have a particular kind of insight after the transition. Instead, he learned that his perception of the friend as a "man" was a projection. His friend would not have felt the need to transition if she felt she was a "man." His friend could only provide more nuanced insights, because her experience was not that of a "…

I think this explanation has the opposite effect: it cheapened the nuances of what he said.
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