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Can You Get Smarter?

nytimes.com

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Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#41

Post by TeMPOraL »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #34
TeMPOraL wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More imporantly, unless there's a hidden software in brain that responds precisely to that particular training, you'd expect that anything that can yield significant results by doing it 3x a week for 10 minutes would be already discovered purely by random chance.

Sure, but would they have recognized it? Would they put 2 and 2 together - "I ate a hamburger every Tuesday night for a year, and now I'm smarter...Eureka!" Heck, maybe they would - they're a genius now.

Of course they would, that's how we've invented pretty much anything, scientific method included. People are pretty observant, there are lots of them and they've been taking notes for many thousands of years.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#42

Post by mgkimsal »

mbritton72 wrote: post #32
marincounty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you do, but I have found the general public vastly underestimates the intelligence of many auto mechanics--especially today's mechanics. I guess they have always been an easy target in movies, etc.? I have a feeling your dad could learn anything if given the right structure. Mechanics are underpaid, expected to continually learn on their time, provide $20,000-30,000 grand worth of tools; and the owner…

The auto mechanics I've encountered are brilliant people. The next Nietzsche or Michelangelo will be an auto mechanic.

It strikes me that most professions have extremes.

There are developers, then there are developers.

There are mechanics, then there are mechanics.

etc.

There some mechanics I know who are absolutely top-notch - they know their stuff, and have had a passion for it for years. Others I run in to at repair shops are really just... they have a job. That's it. They may stay, or move on to something else later, but they're just average.

And I see that in a lot of developers (probably moreso, as I have a more critical eye for that).

But I think it's probably that way in almost every profession - some are truly passionate, brilliant, dedicated, etc. And some folks just treat it as a job.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#43

Post by hawkice »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #22
hawkice wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the analogy (as I understood it) was that there are important, extremely large effects that are caused by behavior X (in this case, exercise). But if we put exercise to the same test, we would fail to notice those important and extremely large effects. So by using so little training, we learn little about what effects it _could_ have -- it could work, but we wouldn't know unless it worked 10-100x faste…

This is fallacious, inductive reasoning. The behaviors are not the same. It is not valid to draw a post hoc conclusion from one to the other.

So, I don't mean to imply that there is a units equivalency -- 1 minute of exercise is not the same or similar to 1 minute of some type of mental activity. It's no good to say "this experiment doesn't use at least N minutes of intervention, where N comes from this totally different process and unit system having to do with the effects of e.g. bench presses". But that isn't what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, if you give an intervention of thirty minutes of activity a week and see no change, it's a pretty reasonable to conclude "30 minutes a week for six weeks is not an effective dose" and not jump all the way to "This intervention has no effect". This is why I highlighted how low the 'dose' of the intervention was.

[I also am relying on my understanding of Dual N-back, language learning, and other mental tasks, and the turnaround time for them is substantially longer -- and thus requires a higher dose -- than starting from a similar place in exercise. This context is useful only for general dose estimates {{ even 10 hours a week might not be enough to learn a language, certainly not in six weeks }}, but not necessary for the comparison.]

Does that address the substance of your objection?

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#45

Post by ddorian43 »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #4
monort wrote: post #3

This is more dreadful, than ageism. From linked paper: For example, longitudinal studies have reported between 1% and 2% annual hippocampal atrophy in adults older than 55 years without dementia (e.g., Jack and others 1998). Other regions also atrophy in late adulthood, including the prefrontal cortex, caudate nucleus, and cerebellum, at estimated rates between 0.5% and 2% per year. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar…

That is terrifying. I'm 32. That means in slightly over 20 years I am going to slowly become brain dead. By the time they cure death in my 70s, I will be too old to enjoy it unless they also can reverse this.

Who is "they" ? Why don't you try yourself to cure death (by donating or something) ?

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#46

Post by chdir »

kator wrote: post #13

My dad went from being an auto mechanic to learning to code when he was 63 and he's 77 now and argues with me about Drupal vs Joomla over dinner. It's only one sample but I'm convinced him switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably.

> learning to code when he was 63

> switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably

I find this very interesting & uplifting. Would you be comfortable sharing more on what motivated him to switch careers at that age and your general observations throughout the process. I'm perhaps your age but I've experienced switching careers significantly is like hitting F5 in your life, or like a complete system re-install. Everything feels fresh & new. You feel energized to learn a lot of new concepts. However, it's usually very difficult to convince someone who's 60+ to learn to code. Usually people are intimidated by programming if they've only interacted with a browser for most of their lives.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#47

Post by pella »

Dual N-Back : mental exercise ...

* Gwern (unofficial) Dual N-Back FAQ: http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ

* Gwern: DUAL N-BACK META-ANALYSIS http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20meta-analysis

* Gwern: NOOTROPICS http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics

* Google group: Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence : https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/brain-training

* http://brainworkshop.sourceforge.net/

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#48

Post by jghn »

marincounty wrote: post #23
kator wrote: post #13

My dad went from being an auto mechanic to learning to code when he was 63 and he's 77 now and argues with me about Drupal vs Joomla over dinner. It's only one sample but I'm convinced him switching careers extended his neural plasticity considerably.

I'm not saying you do, but I have found the general public vastly underestimates the intelligence of many auto mechanics--especially today's mechanics. I guess they have always been an easy target in movies, etc.? I have a feeling your dad could learn anything if given the right structure. Mechanics are underpaid, expected to continually learn on their time, provide $20,000-30,000 grand worth of tools; and the owner…

This will be unpopular here but the flipside of that is I think folks overestimate how mentally taxing "learn to code" really is. The large majority of programming tasks are pretty rote at this point, it's just all hidden behind a veneer of arcane wizardry.

Re: Can You Get Smarter?

#49

Post by dogma1138 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #30
DarkTree wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't even enough time to significantly increase your strength at a gym, which we know is possible and observable. Why anyone would think this is enough training to produce noticeable effects baffles me.

More imporantly, unless there's a hidden software in brain that responds precisely to that particular training, you'd expect that anything that can yield significant results by doing it 3x a week for 10 minutes would be already discovered purely by random chance.

6 weeks of effective 10min training is actually enough for some one that isn't training regularly.

Do 10 min of pushups for 6 weeks and see for yourself.

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