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Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

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Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#111

Post by task_queue »

nickff wrote: post #92
dragonbonheur wrote: post #91

I find it both funny and appalling how Americans view any sort of movement in the common social interest as a threat. It's as if they want to maintain an inegalitarian status-quo that only protects the richest minority, even if they are not part of it. Absolutely ridiculous.

Some approach the issue from a Kantian perspective, and ask 'what right does A have to take B's money and give it to C?'[1] Others (of a more utilitarian leaning) wonder whether redistribution will 'kill the engine of prosperity'. The USA has overtaken Britain in per capita GDP by growing 1% (point) faster per year for 100 years, and many believe that redistribution reduces growth. What part of this is "absolutely ri…

> Some approach the issue from a Kantian perspective, and ask 'what right does A have to take B's money and give it to C?'[1]

What right does someone have to reap the benefits of society and not give back? What right does someone have to accumulate wealth from a system based on hundreds of years of driving people from their land and means of existence (enclosure), violence (anti-labor/union action), political misgiving (anti-labor laws), collusion and still not contribute?

Stratification to this extent wasn't possible without stripping people of their ability to bargain with capital for a share of profits from increased productivity. It wasn't possible without whittling the system down to the point where the wealthy pay a fraction of the taxes they did or could compared to other classes and to the point where raising their taxes is political suicide.

> Others (of a more utilitarian leaning) wonder whether redistribution will 'kill the engine of prosperity'. The USA has overtaken Britain in per capita GDP by growing 1% (point) faster per year for 100 years, and many believe that redistribution reduces growth.

Evidence for this? Countries with a strong social safety net sure don't seem have killed their engines of prosperity.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#112

Post by task_queue »

intopieces wrote: post #86
nosuchthing wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investing in free mass transportation, health care, affordable/free higher education, affordable food (or food stamps), and free public housing within 30 minutes to major city centers would seem like a sensible alternative to the basic income system of 'just give people money'. Basic Income seems like it would inevitably lead to inflation especially since 'fiat money' economics are so prone to emotional speculations.…

> affordable food (or food stamps), and free public housing within 30 minutes to major city centers would seem like a sensible alternative to the basic income system of 'just give people money'. We give people food stamps, they sell them for less than they're worth for cash. We have public housing. It's called "The Projects" and they're generally known as the rough area of town. Both of these services cost taxpayers…

Most Basic Income systems I've seen do not do away with existing social services. BI is a supplement to them.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#113

Post by tonyedgecombe »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #26
donatj wrote: post #4

If I could live and not have a job, I wouldn't have a job. I could do my art and enjoy my life and the economy would crumble while everyone else watches Netflix.

If I could live and not have a job, I wouldn't have a job either. I could grow as an engineer, finally pivot into biotech, finish the couple of open source projects I know would be useful to many as opposed to the bullshit job I have in webdev (had, actually, right now I'm finally working on something remotely useful - manufacturing management). The economy would be totally fucking fine, enjoyed by all people, many o…

Most people wood work because they can't stop themselves buying Netflix, wide screen televisions, big trucks and huge houses. Not so different from now really.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#114

Post by sktrdie »

Falkon1313 wrote: post #93

Consider agriculture. It used to employ over 80% of the workforce, now less than 2%. But now, with over 98% unemployment, we're not starving. Instead, we're wasting 40% of our food, exporting food, and reading articles about obesity epidemics and how the grocery store is reducing its 57 varieties of ketchup so that we won't have so much difficulty choosing. Manufacturing is going that way. We're well into the disposa…

Instead of UBI, we need to pressure our governments to heavily regulate how much the free market can destroy the environment and ourselves. Then, that 80%, who is unemployed, will work on making sure the agriculture is healthy, harmless, diverse, etc. You can expand this thinking to anything else, but regulation is the key. By regulating you create jobs that weren't possible in a pure free market.

And of course don't forget the entire realm of possible jobs we can't even phantom about these days. Jobs such as a "ventriloquist" should not be ridiculed. Our societies should nurture the diversity of possible things that can be done via regulations and laws and minimum wage.

Then you still have those people that simply don't want to do anything. Which is fine, but if you give them a very large spectrum of possibilities to choose from, and not limit them to a few fields, they will probably find something they like and contribute to the whole system.

But again, the key here is that the government must regulate the free market to expand the possible amount of jobs - this is important because these jobs are not created by the free market, but rather are needed for reasons such as our health, culture, research, exploration... we need more of these.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#115

Post by gaius »

dragonwriter wrote: post #87
gaius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people wouldn't consider the UBI to be enough to sustain their lifestyles so they'd continue to work No they wouldn't. They'd vote for an increase in UBI.

> > Many people wouldn't consider the UBI to be enough to sustain their lifestyles so they'd continue to work > No they wouldn't. They'd vote for an increase in UBI. UBI isn't magic. If you raise UBI to high for the conditions in the economy to sustain, it drives inflation such that further increases to the nominal UBI level produce ever smaller increases to the real UBI level. (And people who understand this, and th…

That's nice in theory but unfortunately we have real-world counterexample: Greece. The people will happily vote for their government to spend more than they can afford, and they'll do it again and again.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#116

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

Falkon1313 wrote: post #93

Consider agriculture. It used to employ over 80% of the workforce, now less than 2%. But now, with over 98% unemployment, we're not starving. Instead, we're wasting 40% of our food, exporting food, and reading articles about obesity epidemics and how the grocery store is reducing its 57 varieties of ketchup so that we won't have so much difficulty choosing. Manufacturing is going that way. We're well into the disposa…

i think a major problem is that basic income will breed some very undesirable attitudes with those people who will depend on long term basic income. Dependency on handouts breeds passivity and indifference, you will also see a very violent and angry younger generation - these people might be very angry at anybody who sticks out of the gray norm of basic income.

i think basic income will not breed critical thinkers, instead you achieve a state of intolerant and angry uniformity.

You might also study some prior experience here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#117

Post by bryanlarsen »

sktrdie wrote: post #114
Falkon1313 wrote: post #93

Consider agriculture. It used to employ over 80% of the workforce, now less than 2%. But now, with over 98% unemployment, we're not starving. Instead, we're wasting 40% of our food, exporting food, and reading articles about obesity epidemics and how the grocery store is reducing its 57 varieties of ketchup so that we won't have so much difficulty choosing. Manufacturing is going that way. We're well into the disposa…

Instead of UBI, we need to pressure our governments to heavily regulate how much the free market can destroy the environment and ourselves. Then, that 80%, who is unemployed, will work on making sure the agriculture is healthy, harmless, diverse, etc. You can expand this thinking to anything else, but regulation is the key. By regulating you create jobs that weren't possible in a pure free market. And of course don't…

Let me translate into economist friendly speech for you:

Rather than "regulate", you want to "internalize externalities". Make bad things (like emitting carbon) more expensive by making people pay the estimated true cost of their actions. And don't be afraid to apply it to sacred cows, like agriculture. For example, it's probably tillage that is the most harmful thing that is done by modern agriculture. Tax that. Sure, that will definitely make food more expensive, but now you can use the proceeds to help ensure the poor don't starve. But leave it to farmers to figure out how to grow food without tillage -- it will likely require more labour.

To augment your second point, what's the difference between a "starving artist" and an unemployed person? In some ways there's very little difference, in others there's a huge difference. We need to stop categorizing people without traditional jobs as 'unemployed'. There are so many other labels that could fit: artist, student, parent, hobbyist, activist, open source programmer, et cetera.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#118

Post by jqm »

What I'd like to see is machines on the street (like drinking fountains) that dispense (at no charge) nutritious meals. I'd like to see a global network of (robot cleaned) rooms anyone can go into at any time, (at no charge), and sleep. I'd like to see free transportation. Free education. Free places you can go work. Free places to go watch a movie. The best medical care at no charge. I'd like for people to completely have to stop worrying about providing for biological needs and have those met with 0 friction.

And... I'm pretty sure all this will happen with time.

The problem now is we have this myopia about money. We think it's something more than just the symbol or variable it actually is. But really it's a fairly new invention. We have done without it for most of our history.

Don't get me wrong... the invention of money as a concept has allowed great leaps forward in technology and progress. But the concept isn't eternal and it has it's downsides. One is that it creates a certain amount of friction. You have people spending too much effort playing with the symbol rather than what it represents.

Ideally, I'd like to own absolutely nothing. Except for a great big sack. When I need something, I'd tell the sack and out comes the thing I need. When I'm done, it goes back and the sack and disappears and no more worrying about it. That's how I think it should be.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#119

Post by ConceptJunkie »

drewrv wrote: post #81
pvnick wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $10,000 basic income, perhaps the bare minimum to prevent starvation and homelessness in the most rural parts of the country, for everyone in the United States over the age of 18 involves roughly 2.5 trillion dollars in payouts per year, about 10% GDP for the country (about twice the GDP accounted for by social security). Increasing basic income to $20,000 per year doubles that to about 5 trillion, and that is stil…

US GDP has risen by more than 5 trillion since the year 2000 driven mostly by productivity improvements from tech. So we could already be doing it if we wanted to.

I was skeptical of your claim, but in fact, 5 trillion is an underestimate:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=us+gdp

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#120

Post by ConceptJunkie »

kartan wrote: post #84
JackFr wrote: post #7

If I read it correctly, in all of the case studies referenced in the article, the basic income provided was exogenous. That is, the basic income going to the villagers, was not coming from the villagers. So it's not surprising that everyone got chummy when the money flowed in. However a complete picture would show how the people paying felt about it.

" how the people paying felt about it" Now I'm working for rich people. That gives them so much power that they corrupt politicians and all the system. I will prefer that that money went to people that needs it. And the Basic Income money goes for EVERYONE. If I loss my job I also get a benefit from it. The current system is broken and makes no sense at all. Who wants a system where a few have more than they will eve…

I'll really appreciate that $10,000 UBI I get from the government. It will help offset the $20,000 in extra taxes I have to pay for UBI.
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