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Coding academies are nonsense

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Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#11

Post by vegabook »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #9
slavik81 wrote: post #4

> Visual content creation tools such as Scratch, DWNLD and Telerik will continue to improve until all functionality required to build apps is available to consumers — without having to write a line of code. > Who needs to code when you can use visual building blocks or even plain English to describe intent? Advances in natural-language processing and conceptual modeling will remove the need for traditional coding fro…

This is very true. The idea of visual programming has been around forever and there is nothing wrong with it inherently. It certainly hasn't quite delivered as expected. But even established visual programming environments (e.g. LabView) are a skill itself now.

While I agree with you on visual programming, I think another issue raises itself: we are used to linear text editors - write one line after another - because they fit the way the computer works. Even breaking code down hierarchically as we do (functions, modules) still breaks a linear process into many linear processes. Yet increasingly as problems become more asynchronous / parallel, I sometimes wish for a more sophisticated code-creation paradigm, one where, for example, there would be some kind of two dimensional or even multidimensional visual representation of the logic of the program (even if those were each composed of linear text blocks). It's always possible to represent multiple dimensions in a lower-dimensional medium, but it becomes harder to conceptualize. So we have code folding tools, we have NERDTree etc to help us manage all the blocks, but sometimes I wonder if I could have some kind of multidimensional VIM that would allow the visual structure of my code more directly to map to the logic flow.

I have taken to coding on a 4k 40 inch monitor (highly recommended - the BDM4065UC from Philips is so good I bought two) because it allows to me see so much more of my code and the way the flow will jump around, to have it all in front of my eyes kinda thing, and I wonder if it would be even better to add some visual tools in there to do conditional flow control.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#12

Post by bjwbell »

captn3m0 wrote: post #2

While I agree with some of the premise of the article (you can't become a great developer in a few weeks), it tries almost too hard to scare people away from programming. >Would I like to type text files for hours a day? The bulk of my time is spent thinking, not typing. >Am I comfortable being a digital construction worker? Programming is a creative job that the author is trying to sound so mundane and boring. Yes,…

I like to think programming is about being creative...but reality has stared at me too long. The large majority of it IS mundane and boring.

I just looked at the commit log for my current project, https://github.com/bjwbell/gensimd/commits/master (SIMD in Go), and ~90% of the commits are boring. I still feel very excited about it, perhaps I'm unbalanced.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#13

Post by vegabook »

lordnacho wrote: post #8

Coding is translation as much as translation is translation. That is to say, it isn't. People who translate are trying to convey meaning. They are not just converting instructions from one language to another. There is intent, emotion, connotation. And you have to do this elegantly. (Everyone who grew up bilingual has spotted clumsy translations.) I think this article takes a very narrow view of coding. Yet also a fa…

+1 on the idea that you may never use something but you will at least have heard about it, know it exists and know where to look, in the future if/when you suspect you might need it.

Wasn't a huge fan of applied maths during my CS degree more than a decade ago, but am very thankful these days that I had an inkling of an idea about FFTs, PCA, and stochastic calculus, all of which I have had to brush up on and use in recent years.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#14

Post by yojo »

I agree that there are a limited number of people that are excited about the types of thinking and problem solving that comprise typical coding. But not all of those people are already coders. 9 weeks of intensive training can get someone with the right mindset in shape to make useful contributions as part of a team.

You can self teach (I did), but having structured guidance and someone to answer your questions can get you there faster. I watched my cousin move from novice to gainfully employed via boot camp in a tenth of the time that it took me drilling with a friend nights and weekends.

Even if we take the author's dubious claim that the skills have a shelf life, it's going to be years at minimum before the demand slacks. Plenty of time to earn back the cost of admission with a significantly higher salary.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#15

Post by calcsam »

Everything he says about programmers is also applicable to lawyers.

* Would I like to type text files for hours a day? Check.

* Do I enjoy decomposing problems into detailed lists of instructions? Lines of reasoning, but check.

* Am I good at abstract conceptual thinking? Check.

The pool of potential programmers is a lot larger than we might think.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#16

Post by vegabook »

bjwbell wrote: post #12
captn3m0 wrote: post #2

While I agree with some of the premise of the article (you can't become a great developer in a few weeks), it tries almost too hard to scare people away from programming. >Would I like to type text files for hours a day? The bulk of my time is spent thinking, not typing. >Am I comfortable being a digital construction worker? Programming is a creative job that the author is trying to sound so mundane and boring. Yes,…

I like to think programming is about being creative...but reality has stared at me too long. The large majority of it IS mundane and boring. I just looked at the commit log for my current project, https://github.com/bjwbell/gensimd/commits/master (SIMD in Go), and ~90% of the commits are boring. I still feel very excited about it, perhaps I'm unbalanced.

I don't think there is any creative endeavour in life that does not contain very large proportions of mundane work. What gets you through the mundanity is the creative spirit - the idea that the final product will be amazing / different / inspiring, that makes all the work worthwhile.

"Unbalanced" is often a description of someone who is inordinately passionate about a project, and inevitably is applied to creative types without whom such projects would never come to fruition.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#17

Post by tonyedgecombe »

bjwbell wrote: post #12
captn3m0 wrote: post #2

While I agree with some of the premise of the article (you can't become a great developer in a few weeks), it tries almost too hard to scare people away from programming. >Would I like to type text files for hours a day? The bulk of my time is spent thinking, not typing. >Am I comfortable being a digital construction worker? Programming is a creative job that the author is trying to sound so mundane and boring. Yes,…

I like to think programming is about being creative...but reality has stared at me too long. The large majority of it IS mundane and boring. I just looked at the commit log for my current project, https://github.com/bjwbell/gensimd/commits/master (SIMD in Go), and ~90% of the commits are boring. I still feel very excited about it, perhaps I'm unbalanced.

The majority of any creative endeavour is mundane and boring, we do it for those small moments of inspiration and insight that break up the periods of drudgery.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#18

Post by flowerpot »

vegabook wrote: post #11
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very true. The idea of visual programming has been around forever and there is nothing wrong with it inherently. It certainly hasn't quite delivered as expected. But even established visual programming environments (e.g. LabView) are a skill itself now.

While I agree with you on visual programming, I think another issue raises itself: we are used to linear text editors - write one line after another - because they fit the way the computer works. Even breaking code down hierarchically as we do (functions, modules) still breaks a linear process into many linear processes. Yet increasingly as problems become more asynchronous / parallel, I sometimes wish for a more sop…

Couldn't agree more. Code is highly dimensional while our text editors are two dimensional at best. In case you don't know these talks I think you will enjoy The Future of Programming and Inventing on Principle both by Bret Victor.

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#19

Post by Twisell »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #9
slavik81 wrote: post #4

> Visual content creation tools such as Scratch, DWNLD and Telerik will continue to improve until all functionality required to build apps is available to consumers — without having to write a line of code. > Who needs to code when you can use visual building blocks or even plain English to describe intent? Advances in natural-language processing and conceptual modeling will remove the need for traditional coding fro…

This is very true. The idea of visual programming has been around forever and there is nothing wrong with it inherently. It certainly hasn't quite delivered as expected. But even established visual programming environments (e.g. LabView) are a skill itself now.

Even in high level graphical "magical" interface like Tableau software visual BI tools, the real power come with the small scripting part you can put on some specific places.

When I show my work people go crazy like "wohooo I need this magical too so I can do it too!". Then they ask to modify a pretty straigforward measurement, so I open the calculation script in front of them... they got scared as hell and suddenly think I'm some sort of wizard.

Being allergic to code is a pathology for someone who work in IT, don't get it wrong kids!

Re: Coding academies are nonsense

#20

Post by eru »

calcsam wrote: post #15

Everything he says about programmers is also applicable to lawyers. * Would I like to type text files for hours a day? Check. * Do I enjoy decomposing problems into detailed lists of instructions? Lines of reasoning, but check. * Am I good at abstract conceptual thinking? Check. The pool of potential programmers is a lot larger than we might think.

Also: spreadsheets. The world's most popular (zero-th order) functional programming language.

Legions of `normal' people wrestle spreadsheets every day. It's a brilliant model to get people started. Even better than PHP. (Only partially joking.)

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