Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#81

Post by drewrv » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 6:27 AM UTC

pvnick wrote: post #38

paulsutter wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money for basic income will come from automation driven productivity improvements. Many of the people who are "paying for it" (ie, putting in the thousands of man-years to create those technologies) have exactly that intent, to free people from drudgery. EDIT: pvnick, yes the consensus is measured in decades. Some think fewer, some think more, but yes and thanks.

A $10,000 basic income, perhaps the bare minimum to prevent starvation and homelessness in the most rural parts of the country, for everyone in the United States over the age of 18 involves roughly 2.5 trillion dollars in payouts per year, about 10% GDP for the country (about twice the GDP accounted for by social security). Increasing basic income to $20,000 per year doubles that to about 5 trillion, and that is stil…

US GDP has risen by more than 5 trillion since the year 2000 driven mostly by productivity improvements from tech. So we could already be doing it if we wanted to.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#82

Post by drewrv » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 6:41 AM UTC

Dagwoodie wrote: post #57

vlunkr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You underestimate the laziness of countless spoiled children who have lived in their parents basements watching netflix and playing video games for years when they could be following their passions.

"This sounds great, I haven't had any time off since I was 21 through 24!" - Phillip J Fry Seriously though, I'd wager the vast majority, if not all of the world's greatest inventions of the last millenium came not from those who inherited great wealth but those who had to struggle, worry, pray and perhaps cry about their fate before their survival instincts threw their imagination and determination into overdrive. U…

How many more of the worlds greatest inventions (and works of art, and many other things) would we have if people were free to follow their passions, particularly the millions in poverty who have no means to support themselves while they pursue brilliant ideas?

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#83

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 6:51 AM UTC

People are using Australia as an example, we have very large taxes (most people pay at least 25%, some 35%+) we also have a 10% tax on all goods and high GDP per capita. You cant fund social welfare programs without huge taxes on everyone not just the rich.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#84

Post by kartan » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 6:58 AM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #7

If I read it correctly, in all of the case studies referenced in the article, the basic income provided was exogenous. That is, the basic income going to the villagers, was not coming from the villagers. So it's not surprising that everyone got chummy when the money flowed in. However a complete picture would show how the people paying felt about it.

" how the people paying felt about it" Now I'm working for rich people. That gives them so much power that they corrupt politicians and all the system. I will prefer that that money went to people that needs it. And the Basic Income money goes for EVERYONE. If I loss my job I also get a benefit from it. The current system is broken and makes no sense at all. Who wants a system where a few have more than they will ever need and so much power that they are not accountable while most people has stress issues because doesn't knows from where the money is going to come next year. The money/productivity is there, sharing it fairly is good for every one.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#85

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:01 AM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #65

lambdapie wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point. Can you clarify? For reference, when I speak of "marginal effective tax rate" I mean the marginal effective tax rate after including (1) welfare payments to you, (2) the tax you pay and (3) any basic income you receive, although (3) does not directly contribute to the marginal effective tax rate, since it is zero.

I'm just thinking that instead of taxing some other money (primarily debt) to fund the basic income, the basic income itself can be the money (though, additional monies may be desired), which would obviate any need for taxes/reclaimation.

> I'm just thinking that instead of taxing some other money (primarily debt) to fund the basic income, the basic income itself can be the money

The basic income can't be the money that pays for the basic income, unless your concept is that the government prints additional money for the basic income directly (note this is distinct from the Fed printing money and buying government securities, which is just debt financing.) That's possible, just as it is for any government spending, if you break the whole independent central bank system.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#86

Post by intopieces » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:01 AM UTC

nosuchthing wrote: post #68

SCAQTony wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a sociologist but I do believe the strong should assist the weak but handing out cash to a set of people who may have disabilities, addictions, severe IQ deficits or otherwise may be a "fast curtain" to a "bad second act." I believe offering free food and shelter would be far less expensive and a better investment. Example: 25% of the homeless suffer from mental illness, what would they do with free money? h…

Investing in free mass transportation, health care, affordable/free higher education, affordable food (or food stamps), and free public housing within 30 minutes to major city centers would seem like a sensible alternative to the basic income system of 'just give people money'. Basic Income seems like it would inevitably lead to inflation especially since 'fiat money' economics are so prone to emotional speculations.…

> affordable food (or food stamps), and free public housing within 30 minutes to major city centers would seem like a sensible alternative to the basic income system of 'just give people money'.

We give people food stamps, they sell them for less than they're worth for cash. We have public housing. It's called "The Projects" and they're generally known as the rough area of town.

Both of these services cost taxpayers exorbitant amounts in administration. If we eliminated most of that and just gave people cash, we could let them spend on what they need. Because they know better than we do what they need, and their needs are much more varied and specific than one agency could ever cover.

There would be inflation, yes. But inflation in itself is not a bad thing so long as wages keep pace with inflation. They haven't. A minimum income would bring people with almost-no spending power into at least the bottom. And poor people don't save their money -- they spend it, often at local businesses.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#87

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:09 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #79

creadee wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some would buy your art instead of paying Netflix to watch other people's art? I think it's safe to say we don't have a clue how things would pan out with a UBI, since none of the examples have been universal yet. A few things are a given though: 1) Many people wouldn't consider the UBI to be enough to sustain their lifestyles so they'd continue to work. 2) Low-paid work that people don't like doing will have t…

Many people wouldn't consider the UBI to be enough to sustain their lifestyles so they'd continue to work No they wouldn't. They'd vote for an increase in UBI.

> > Many people wouldn't consider the UBI to be enough to sustain their lifestyles so they'd continue to work

> No they wouldn't. They'd vote for an increase in UBI.

UBI isn't magic. If you raise UBI to high for the conditions in the economy to sustain, it drives inflation such that further increases to the nominal UBI level produce ever smaller increases to the real UBI level.

(And people who understand this, and those who have moral objections to UBI beyond a minimal level, and those who oppose the UBI entirely but weren't strong enough to prevent it from being passed -- they would all vote against the increase to the UBI, either always or past certain points. So, there's political limits to the ability to raise the UBI, as well as, even if not all completely independent of, the fundamental economic limits.)

In the end, even with a UBI, people who aren't happy living on what the UBI does (or can) provide are going to need to engage in economic activity to produce non-UBI income.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#88

Post by Falkon1313 » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:11 AM UTC

SHIT_TALKER wrote: post #8

In the studies mentioned, were immigrants able to move into the areas receiving UBI and avail themselves of those funds? It doesn't appear so. What difference might that have made? And wouldn't that have made them more realistic experiments? (Were the experiments specifically designed to produce positive outcomes?) Can the experiments even be considered to have been about UBI? What does giving money to a small group…

I don't know whether they did that in the studies, but here in the U.S., we have a long tradition of immigrants moving in and participating in the local bounty. We celebrate it, in fact. A major holiday coming up next month is centered around exactly that - immigrants being thankful for the wealth they had received.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#89

Post by visarga » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:30 AM UTC

Basic Income sounds great on paper but I fear that it will lead to a new kind of servitude towards the state, that will be the only provider. Politicians will have even more access (direct access) to the quality of life of their electorate. What will stop states to link the "Chinese style credit score" to the quantum of BI one receives?

How will we make sure the quantum of basic income is enough for a decent life? How will we convince people that they got enough and avoid falling into dissatisfaction with it? I suppose people will always bitch about BI being too low.

Re: Universal Basic Income Will Likely Increase Social Cohesion

#90

Post by qrendel » Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 7:34 AM UTC

visarga wrote: post #89

Basic Income sounds great on paper but I fear that it will lead to a new kind of servitude towards the state, that will be the only provider. Politicians will have even more access (direct access) to the quality of life of their electorate. What will stop states to link the "Chinese style credit score" to the quantum of BI one receives? How will we make sure the quantum of basic income is enough for a decent life? Ho…

That seems like an important consideration. Another I wonder about is whether it will just create a new baseline for poverty, causing either short-term or continual inflation. (Though I'm not opposed to basic income, just skeptical about the net benefit.)

Another related issue is greater incentive to restrict immigration, deny benefits to criminals, etc, compared to a society where no one collects any benefits.