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Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

theguardian.com

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Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#11

Post by mmanfrin »

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

There is a decent nerdwriter video on worldbuilding (and he talks about Tolkien's masterly production of the world of Middle Earth):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA6MQHNM2yE

I don't fully agree with the thesis of the video, but it's a worthy watch and well reasoned argument.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#12

Post by davidw »

mmanfrin wrote: post #4
davidw wrote: post #2

Minis Tirith ... Ravenna?! It's flat there: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ravenna+RA,+Italy/@44.3775... Maybe he was thinking of http://www.incomingpartners.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/sa... San Marino.

Ravenna is where the Western Roman capital moved to (402-476) in an effort to be more easily defended; likewise the capital of Gondor was moved from Osgiliath to Minas Tirith to more easily defend it.

Perhaps they would have lasted a bit longer if they'd gone to San Marino! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#13

Post by macintux »

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

I found Shippey's "J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century" a compelling read. It examines Tolkien's fascination with myth (which, I suppose, is effectively redundant; can't very well write a biography of him without it).

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#14

Post by mmanfrin »

davidw wrote: post #12
mmanfrin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ravenna is where the Western Roman capital moved to (402-476) in an effort to be more easily defended; likewise the capital of Gondor was moved from Osgiliath to Minas Tirith to more easily defend it.

Perhaps they would have lasted a bit longer if they'd gone to San Marino! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Wouldn't have made much of a difference as Odoacer simply bypassed Ravenna (and would have bypassed San Marino) on his way to sacking Rome. Rome at that time had fallen far from grace, but the sacking was the nail on the coffin.

The true strength of Rome had already left, gone east to Constantinople. 4th/5th century western Rome was just a slow and painful decay. The East survived until 1453.

Fun little fact: the Roman Empire existed until 1453 and was finally destroyed by the Ottomans; the Ottomans existed until the end of WW1; the Cubbies last won the world series in 1908; which all means: the last time the Cubs won the world series, the empire that destroyed the Roman empire was still around.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#15

Post by baghira »

davidw wrote: post #12
mmanfrin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ravenna is where the Western Roman capital moved to (402-476) in an effort to be more easily defended; likewise the capital of Gondor was moved from Osgiliath to Minas Tirith to more easily defend it.

Perhaps they would have lasted a bit longer if they'd gone to San Marino! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Trouble is, there was no San Marino at the time. While I have no idea whether or not this was the inspiration for Tolkien, some element sort of match, from the capital being moved to the following reconquest of Ravenna under Byzantine rule, and also the presence of marshes to the north of the city (if Middle Earth map is oriented North-top South-bottom, which I'm not sure).

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#16

Post by baghira »

mmanfrin wrote: post #14
davidw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they would have lasted a bit longer if they'd gone to San Marino! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Wouldn't have made much of a difference as Odoacer simply bypassed Ravenna (and would have bypassed San Marino) on his way to sacking Rome. Rome at that time had fallen far from grace, but the sacking was the nail on the coffin. The true strength of Rome had already left, gone east to Constantinople. 4th/5th century western Rome was just a slow and painful decay. The East survived until 1453. Fun little fact: the Rom…

I can't recall a sack of Rome by Odoacer, nor can I find after a quick search, but my memory may be lasping here. FWIW, Odoacer did escape to Ravenna to escape Theoderic and the siege lasted circa 3 years, so it did prove to be a reasonable location from that point of view.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#17

Post by pdpi »

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

> You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail (...) fully creating multiple language families for instance

These things are related, but in the exact opposite way from what you're suggesting.

Tolkien was, first and foremost, a linguist. Language was his passion, and he was of the opinion that, e.g., Esperanto was much more of a dead language than Latin or Ancient Greek are, because Esperanto doesn't have a culture to call its own, whereas Latin and Ancient Greek have a wealth of culture attached to them, and, therefore, a life of their own.

Elvish and dwarfish weren't invented to give Middle Earth more detail. Middle Earth was invented so that the languages would be, in a sense, alive.

Re: Tolkien's annotated map of Middle-earth discovered in copy of Lord of the Rings

#20

Post by sevensor »

jfaucett wrote: post #7

"It shows what Blackwell’s called “the exacting nature” of Tolkien’s creative vision: he corrects place names, provides extra ones, and gives Baynes a host of suggestions about the map’s various flora and fauna." You've got to respect the man for his attention to detail. To the outsider it might seem as if it were near insanity levels (fully creating multiple language families for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

The Dwarf Fortress guys remind me of this kind of obsession. Not that both have to do with dwarves, but that both need a world for their obsession to live in. The DF guys created a world for their incredibly detailed simulations, while Tolkein invented a world for his languages.
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