Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking • Hacker News Board

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#31

Post by darkmighty » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 5:30 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #21

lazyant wrote: post #16

> the instructor told him frankly that the victim would die. He researched the subject thoroughly and found that there was absolutely no other solution to choking besides the Heimlich maneuver maybe I've seen too many movies, but what about the old knife and ball pen Tracheotomy?

I've always been rather skeptical about how well that would actually work in practice. But even if it does, presumably the person still needs immediate medical care, as having a hole cut open in their throat is still a pretty serious condition. If you're 100 miles out at sea, you're probably not going to do so well trying to breath through a makeshift tube from a hole in your throat.

I remember hearing a story of it being used a few times during flights. I guess it does work, and having a hole in your throat is not that bad, there are no arteries or much blood flow at all in there. Of course, I would still vastly prefer a dechoker! (assuming it works well)

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#32

Post by dx211 » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

gwern wrote: post #25

Some googling ( https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2011&q=dechoker&hl... ) suggests there are no trials on the Dechoker yet. While that makes sense (realistic choking must be hard to induce experimentally, and any sort of experiment in the wild suffers from choking being rare), it does make me wonder how well it works.

It seems like if they don't have enough pressure in their lungs to expel the bite of ham sandwich, you wouldn't necessarily be able to suck it out with this device. On the other hand, I have a hard time blowing up those skinny balloons for balloon animals, but the pump thing they sell with them does it like a champ.

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#33

Post by JshWright » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

zyxley wrote: post #20

lazyant wrote: post #16

> the instructor told him frankly that the victim would die. He researched the subject thoroughly and found that there was absolutely no other solution to choking besides the Heimlich maneuver maybe I've seen too many movies, but what about the old knife and ball pen Tracheotomy?

Do you really trust any significant number of people to do that without killing the person?

I would assume a ship with a crew of any significant size would have someone on board who is capable of performing a cricothyrotomy.

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#34

Post by mhb » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 5:58 PM UTC

It's a clever idea, but is the vision for this to have one hanging on the wall in a vast number of public places? It says there are 160,000 choking deaths worldwide annually. Presumably the Heimlich maneuver would have worked on some number of those. What is the marginal number of lives saved and at what cost?

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#35

Post by tnorthcutt » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:00 PM UTC

chipgap98 wrote: post #23

ecaron wrote: post #19

For $150, it seems very overpriced to me. I expected this to be in the $30 range. Am I missing some profound piece of engineering that warrants this price? Or is more of a "I think I can charge $X and make s 9x profit" move (which I don't fundamental object to.)

I feel like it might be some of the latter. "You can't really put a price on a human life" and therefore they can overcharge a bit

I'm guessing the FDA approval process isn't exactly cheap, either.

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#36

Post by bsder » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:01 PM UTC

ecaron wrote: post #19

For $150, it seems very overpriced to me. I expected this to be in the $30 range. Am I missing some profound piece of engineering that warrants this price? Or is more of a "I think I can charge $X and make s 9x profit" move (which I don't fundamental object to.)

> Am I missing some profound piece of engineering that warrants this price?

Liability insurance and FDA approval. If you've ever seen the words "For Research Purposes Only" on equipment, that's an indication of profitable device, but small market.

I know people who sell equipment to IVF (in-vitro fertilization) labs that are insane about safety, so their equipment is certainly good enough for general use. However, their volume is sufficiently low that it's just not worth the monetary expenditure given that they have an out simply by labelling things correctly.

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#37

Post by brianberns » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:07 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #27

lazyant wrote: post #16

> the instructor told him frankly that the victim would die. He researched the subject thoroughly and found that there was absolutely no other solution to choking besides the Heimlich maneuver maybe I've seen too many movies, but what about the old knife and ball pen Tracheotomy?

Father Mulcahay certainly had no trouble performing one with no medical training, just a doctor on a radio to walk him through it. Must be pretty easy.

That was a great episode.

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#38

Post by nsgi » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:12 PM UTC

mhb wrote: post #34

It's a clever idea, but is the vision for this to have one hanging on the wall in a vast number of public places? It says there are 160,000 choking deaths worldwide annually. Presumably the Heimlich maneuver would have worked on some number of those. What is the marginal number of lives saved and at what cost?

The Heimlich manoeuvre worked on none of them, because they died. It might have been possible to prevent some of those deaths with wider or more effective provision, but that would also have costs.

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#39

Post by datashovel » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

I'm curious to know the actual numbers (ie. force a human body can exert when attempting to breath in vs opposite pressure caused by this device or heimlich).

I performed heimlich on a roommate a long time ago when I was in college, but it turns out the pressure he was breathing in with was apparently more than the force I exerted trying to get him to push the object out. I simply helped dislodge the object, but it ended up going into his lungs rather than out.

Afterwards he told us he could feel the food (what was obstructing airway) in his lung.

Re: Dechoker medical device could end deaths by choking

#40

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:15 PM UTC

aroch wrote: post #6

Isn't applying negative pressure to the lung also a great way to collapse it?

No. The pressure inside the chest cavity, but outside the lungs, has to increase. This can be seen with a buildup of fluid, a sucking chest wound, punctured lung, or herniated diaphragm. With the pressure balance upset, the diaphragm can no longer move far enough to fully inflate the lung.

If you apply vacuum to the airway, you're just going to pull the diaphragm way up into the chest cavity. The lung won't collapse unless the lung tissue itself rips, or the diaphragm gets herniated. This is probably not going to happen, unless you experience explosive decompression or actively try to hold your breath against the suction.