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How Germany Does Prison

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Re: How Germany Does Prison

#31

Post by Nutomic »

Tomte wrote: post #9
mschuster91 wrote: post #8

We Germans have our own issues though, it's not perfect. What is the prison system in the US, is the psychiatric system here. Once you get in its wheels, it takes really dedicated lawyers and sometimes even mass-media attention to get out. Just look at Gustl Mollath. And our "justice" system suffers from massive, massive understaffing, just like the police. It's easy to "cut costs" there for politicians because there…

Yes, the Mollath case was disgusting. Politicians meddling with the justice system, because of a (partly misguided) public outrage. As a result, Mollath got off.

Are you saying he shouldn't have been released?

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#32

Post by planfaster »

pjc50 wrote: post #24
jules wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even those people don't think you should get a life sentence for every crime. If a prisoner gets out of prison they are going to live somewhere, so somebody is going to be their neighbor. Even if they aren't your neighbor they still live in the same city. The only way around that is to make completely segregated cities for ex-prisoners with walls around them, but that's effectively a giant prison with life sentences…

Even those people don't think you should get a life sentence for every crime. The effect of 3-strikes laws was a life sentence for every third crime, and these have been quite popular. My point is the underlying moral viewpoint of some people that crime is a character trait and not a contingent behaviour: the view that some people are just "bad". Switching this discussion to the rational mode is extremely hard.

I'm one of those "some people" you mentioned. It is indeed about morals. Violence, in my view, is definitely a character trait inextricable from genetic makeup and early upbringing (which sets significant epigenetic markers).

That is exactly why people should be armed. There is no reason for violent criminals to be in prison, they should be dead either from their victim defending themselves, or those around the victim defending the victim. As for non-violent crimes, they shouldn't be in prison, they should be fined or made to work to repay their damages.

This is the rational mode. Your mode, being soft-hearted and wanting to find excuses for violence behavior just so that the criminal can't be blamed, is the emotional mode.

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#33

Post by OneTimePaddy »

pjc50 wrote: post #24
jules wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even those people don't think you should get a life sentence for every crime. If a prisoner gets out of prison they are going to live somewhere, so somebody is going to be their neighbor. Even if they aren't your neighbor they still live in the same city. The only way around that is to make completely segregated cities for ex-prisoners with walls around them, but that's effectively a giant prison with life sentences…

Even those people don't think you should get a life sentence for every crime. The effect of 3-strikes laws was a life sentence for every third crime, and these have been quite popular. My point is the underlying moral viewpoint of some people that crime is a character trait and not a contingent behaviour: the view that some people are just "bad". Switching this discussion to the rational mode is extremely hard.

Usually its actually not about the crime at all- its just a revenge phantasy on somebody, who is percieved to be not "caged" in the working life and society as oneself.

Offenders are just the smallest set of agreeable individuals deserving the punishment for not walking the citizen line.

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#34

Post by OneTimePaddy »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #26
geowwy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You set it up as "punishment prisons" vs. "humane prisons". I don't think anyone says prisons should be inhumane in order to punish criminals. The imprisonment is the punishment, not the treatment inside the prison.

And yet...Texas made their lesser criminals plant potatoes in the hot Texas sun in the middle of nowhere. Recidivism dropped to almost nothing, for those crimes (petty theft etc). Cruel? No, some folks line up to do those jobs. If its ok for Joe Shmoe to get paid minimum wage to do it, then its ok for inmates. Just hot and miserable. Anyway, I'm 'incarcerated' in my cubicle for 8 hours a day. It definitely matters wh…

Thats what all the moral high horse talk boils down to- a revenge fantasy against those percived free

Thanks for proving a point i made somewhere up in the thread.

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#35

Post by gherkin0 »

geowwy wrote: post #25
jules wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the question to ask people who favor punishment prisons is this: prisoners get out of prison one day. If a prisoner was moving in the house next to yours as your neighbor, would you rather have a prisoner from a prison focused on humane treatment or from a prison focused on punishment?

You set it up as "punishment prisons" vs. "humane prisons". I don't think anyone says prisons should be inhumane in order to punish criminals. The imprisonment is the punishment, not the treatment inside the prison.

> I don't think anyone says prisons should be inhumane in order to punish criminals. The imprisonment is the punishment, not the treatment inside the prison.

I think there are many people who say prisons should be inhumane to punish criminals, it's just that they don't understand what they're advocating is inhumane.

An example is the meme that prisoners aren't being punished enough in their "country club prisons", and they should be denied all "luxuries" (defined as thing like TV sets, education, and other things to pass the time). The people who subscribe to that are advocating for inhumane punishment (sensory/psychological/social deprivation), but often they're reflective and haven't thought though their own ideas to really understand them.

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#36

Post by DasIch »

sjm wrote: post #30
DasIch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin is a special case because there are a lot of places that require protection such as government buildings, embassies and synagogues. There is also a protest somewhere in Berlin on almost any given day. On top of that there is the criminal activity, drugs mostly, which means that the police raid places like Görlitzer Park pretty much daily. In the rest of Germany there are cities you can easily spend months in w…

Do Police really raid Görlitzer Park? I haven't been in Berlin for long but I was under the impression it was fairly tolerated, and it seems like a bit of a waste of police resources to crack down on (what I understand is) just a bit of weed.

They do, not that it has any noticeable impact.

Weed is definitely widely tolerated. Many people are in favor of legalization not just among those that enjoy weed but also among people working in the justice system that recognize that prohibition isn't working. Legalization would make it easier to deal with addicts, make it easier to prevent children and teenagers getting weed, would make many parks nicer to visit and bring in taxes. I think that it's just a matter of time until public opinion shifts to the point that it will be legalized.

Nevertheless the time isn't there yet, the senator responsible for police is member of the CDU, conservative and in favor of prohibition and unfortunately, while it's mostly weed, it's not just weed and many people aren't too happy about the aggressive sales tactics.

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#37

Post by someone7x »

planfaster wrote: post #32
pjc50 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even those people don't think you should get a life sentence for every crime. The effect of 3-strikes laws was a life sentence for every third crime, and these have been quite popular. My point is the underlying moral viewpoint of some people that crime is a character trait and not a contingent behaviour: the view that some people are just "bad". Switching this discussion to the rational mode is extremely hard.

I'm one of those "some people" you mentioned. It is indeed about morals. Violence, in my view, is definitely a character trait inextricable from genetic makeup and early upbringing (which sets significant epigenetic markers). That is exactly why people should be armed. There is no reason for violent criminals to be in prison, they should be dead either from their victim defending themselves, or those around the victi…

Not sure why you are downvoted and not parent comment; both make the unsubstantiated claim their position is rational and another position is not.

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#38

Post by civilian »

laotzu wrote: post #27
peteretep wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation?

It's called gentrification.

I expected better from someone with the username laotzu.

And gentrification isn't even a proper example for Palindrome Peter. This isn't a matter of yuppies coming into a neighborhood that has a strong community but has been historically poor, aianus is talking about suburbs that have always been middle-to-upper class. Think Santa Monica, Bellevue, and the entire state of Connecticut. :3

And I suspect that Taoists really wouldn't give a fuck about gentrification. "If you realize that all things change, there is nothing you will try to hold on to. If you are not afraid of dying, there is nothing you cannot achieve."

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#39

Post by ryanlol »

someone7x wrote: post #37
planfaster wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those "some people" you mentioned. It is indeed about morals. Violence, in my view, is definitely a character trait inextricable from genetic makeup and early upbringing (which sets significant epigenetic markers). That is exactly why people should be armed. There is no reason for violent criminals to be in prison, they should be dead either from their victim defending themselves, or those around the victi…

Not sure why you are downvoted and not parent comment; both make the unsubstantiated claim their position is rational and another position is not.

Ah, but that's hardly a claim that needs substantiating. Everybody knows that people can change, adapting to your environment is a basic survival instinct.

Anyone arguing that people don't... can't change obviously has a deeply twisted understanding of humanity.

Re: How Germany Does Prison

#40

Post by laotzu »

civilian wrote: post #38
laotzu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called gentrification.

I expected better from someone with the username laotzu. And gentrification isn't even a proper example for Palindrome Peter. This isn't a matter of yuppies coming into a neighborhood that has a strong community but has been historically poor, aianus is talking about suburbs that have always been middle-to-upper class. Think Santa Monica, Bellevue, and the entire state of Connecticut. :3 And I suspect that Taoists re…

Gentrification is the buying and renovating of houses and stores in deteriorated urban neighborhoods by wealthier individuals, which in effect increases property values and displaces low-income families and small businesses

"When rich speculators prosper while farmers lose their land; when government officials spend money on weapons instead of cures; when the upper class is extravagant and irresponsible while the poor have nowhere to turn- all this is robbery and chaos. It is not in keeping with the Tao."

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