Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game? • Hacker News Board

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#11

Post by sago » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

I wrote a meditative slow game called Calmer (was iOS, sold terribly, no longer available). I was contacted by a US psychiatrist who said he prescribed it for anxiety patients.

It never occurred to me to try to raise tens of millions of dollars for medical trials and then charge a huge amount to insurers!

It does strike me as dubious that the investors are backing this game. When surely any positive result would hold for any number of similar games. A branding play, presumably 'we're the game that did the trials'. But it does seem like that relies on ignorance of what games are available. It remains to be seen if and when they actually show the gameplay!

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#12

Post by edge17 » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 3:38 PM UTC

sago wrote: post #11

I wrote a meditative slow game called Calmer (was iOS, sold terribly, no longer available). I was contacted by a US psychiatrist who said he prescribed it for anxiety patients. It never occurred to me to try to raise tens of millions of dollars for medical trials and then charge a huge amount to insurers! It does strike me as dubious that the investors are backing this game. When surely any positive result would hold…

@sago There's a fair amount of this going on rightnow, that is, using mobile games to address anxiety. Partly because your phone is always there and having treatment options outside the hospital have historically been limited. Psychiatry is very different compared to other fields of medicine in that things tend to be difficult to measure objectively.

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#13

Post by Kiro » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 3:42 PM UTC

sago wrote: post #11

I wrote a meditative slow game called Calmer (was iOS, sold terribly, no longer available). I was contacted by a US psychiatrist who said he prescribed it for anxiety patients. It never occurred to me to try to raise tens of millions of dollars for medical trials and then charge a huge amount to insurers! It does strike me as dubious that the investors are backing this game. When surely any positive result would hold…

Why did you take it down?

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#14

Post by simcop2387 » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 4:19 PM UTC

Kiro wrote: post #13

sago wrote: post #11

I wrote a meditative slow game called Calmer (was iOS, sold terribly, no longer available). I was contacted by a US psychiatrist who said he prescribed it for anxiety patients. It never occurred to me to try to raise tens of millions of dollars for medical trials and then charge a huge amount to insurers! It does strike me as dubious that the investors are backing this game. When surely any positive result would hold…

Why did you take it down?

My guess would be it needed changes to keep it working with one of the iOS updates and since it wasn't making money sago didn't see that it'd get a return to keep it up to date.

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#15

Post by bduerst » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

sago wrote: post #11

I wrote a meditative slow game called Calmer (was iOS, sold terribly, no longer available). I was contacted by a US psychiatrist who said he prescribed it for anxiety patients. It never occurred to me to try to raise tens of millions of dollars for medical trials and then charge a huge amount to insurers! It does strike me as dubious that the investors are backing this game. When surely any positive result would hold…

What were the game mechanics? I've never heard of these slow games before.

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#16

Post by nerfhammer » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

I would love it if this turns out to be effective, but we've already seen something similar with Cogmed - bought by Pearson, can cost thousands of dollars, overhyped claims and highly dubious benefits

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogmed

"Cogmed working memory training is sold as a tool for improving cognitive abilities, such as attention and reasoning. At present, this program is marketed to schools as a means of improving underperforming students’ scholastic performance, and is also available at clinical practices as a treatment for ADHD. We review research conducted with Cogmed software and highlight several concerns regarding methodology and replicability of findings. We conclude that the claims made by Cogmed are largely unsubstantiated, and recommend that future research place greater emphasis on developing theoretically motivated accounts of working memory training."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211368112...

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#17

Post by Mz » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 5:59 PM UTC

medymed wrote: post #4

When a video game is backed by clinical trials, you could charge a ton of money for it. Like $100s per month that insurance plans will negotiate down to fewer $100s, but still 100s, per month. At least for a few years. The difference is that games, unlike drugs, are not mechanistically patentable (correct me if wrong please). Someone could create a close-enough lookalike, and sell it for $1. And if it really works, w…

Any thought on how a developer can adequately monetize a game so as to pay their own bills without charging ridiculous sums to begin with? I mean, say you know how to do something like this, you want to promote health, you loathe the way our current medical system bleeds patients for money. How do you find the sweet spot?

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#18

Post by medymed » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:52 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #17

medymed wrote: post #4

When a video game is backed by clinical trials, you could charge a ton of money for it. Like $100s per month that insurance plans will negotiate down to fewer $100s, but still 100s, per month. At least for a few years. The difference is that games, unlike drugs, are not mechanistically patentable (correct me if wrong please). Someone could create a close-enough lookalike, and sell it for $1. And if it really works, w…

Any thought on how a developer can adequately monetize a game so as to pay their own bills without charging ridiculous sums to begin with? I mean, say you know how to do something like this, you want to promote health, you loathe the way our current medical system bleeds patients for money. How do you find the sweet spot?

You could build a similar game, make no specific claims (or get a small focus-group to test it out), get a psychologist or two interested with a free trial, then transition to a respectable price later if it is adopted by the clinical community without FDA aproval. Or a modification of that ptocess, still without FDA approval. I don't think psychotherapy in general is FDA approved, as far as I can see, so I'm not even sure what the point of FDA approval is other than proving a principle of therapeutic effect to charge a high price and get access to the psychiatry market in addition to the psychology market.

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#19

Post by Mz » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

medymed wrote: post #18

Mz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any thought on how a developer can adequately monetize a game so as to pay their own bills without charging ridiculous sums to begin with? I mean, say you know how to do something like this, you want to promote health, you loathe the way our current medical system bleeds patients for money. How do you find the sweet spot?

You could build a similar game, make no specific claims (or get a small focus-group to test it out), get a psychologist or two interested with a free trial, then transition to a respectable price later if it is adopted by the clinical community without FDA aproval. Or a modification of that ptocess, still without FDA approval. I don't think psychotherapy in general is FDA approved, as far as I can see, so I'm not eve…

Oh, I was thinking of a different condition. My question is more general than your answer seems to infer.

But thank you.

Re: Evo, the First Prescription-Strength Video Game?

#20

Post by sago » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 7:39 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #15

sago wrote: post #11

I wrote a meditative slow game called Calmer (was iOS, sold terribly, no longer available). I was contacted by a US psychiatrist who said he prescribed it for anxiety patients. It never occurred to me to try to raise tens of millions of dollars for medical trials and then charge a huge amount to insurers! It does strike me as dubious that the investors are backing this game. When surely any positive result would hold…

What were the game mechanics? I've never heard of these slow games before.

I'm not sure if it is a genre, or just something I tried.

Each 'level' is a figure consisting of nodes and connecting arcs. You start by placing your finger at any node, and you move your finger until all arcs have been traced. Lift your finger, and you lose immediately. Touch the screen with another finger or part of your hand: you also lose immediately. Move too far from the arc and your accuracy bar depletes, move too quickly and it also depletes. If the bar is gone, you lose. Finish all arcs and you have succeeded.

The challenge is partly in working out which node to start on, and which route to take, to be able to trace all arcs only once. But that isn't a very hard challenge. The main point is to slow down and move consistently and carefully. It should be meditative if done correctly.

It's a digital form of something I've done, personally, for a long time: trace my finger in particular patterns slowly and meditatively. I have a weakness for symbolic, vaguely mystical claptrap, so for me I've given the patterns meanings. It's pointless, really, and maybe pretentious, but it is calming, and not as easy as it sounds to draw a perfect infinity (say) at a constant slow speed without jerking movement. Concentrating on the figure and the symbolism is a form of meditation, I find. So that was the idea. Besides a small number of keen players, it didn't seem to appeal to many. Perhaps it was the slightly pretentious tone: I veered a bit too mystical in the design I think.