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People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

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Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#71

Post by secstate »

some-guy wrote: post #36
mmanfrin wrote: post #29

I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access , not equality of 'things'. The Great American Dream is about someone seizing an opportunity; equality means we all have an opportunity to seize an opportunity. Economic Inequality means there is a disproportionate number of opportunities at the top, and very few at the bottom. Not everyone takes those chances, b…

When I think of inequality and opportunity in the US, I think about the education system. Sadly, the quality of K-12 education in the United States is too strongly tied to economic output / wealth / income of a region, which seems regressive to me.

Having worked as an education beat reporter in a number of really small, really wealth-divided communities for many years, I can tell you that state education is unlikely to ever be the solution to the wealth gap.

Honestly, from my time in the trenches of listening to trite, small, yet passionate people discussing some of the harder parts of educating children (i.e. hard to educate when they're coming to school having eaten 3000+ calories from horribly un-nutritious sources), I've learned that there's no easy solution.

You can't bus those kids out of the low-tax neighborhoods into good schools if they're still going home to a shit environment. The best you can do is stand up and try to mentor one or two kids in your neighborhood in small ways, and encourage others to do the same. Distributed cultural-standard building. That's the best I've got.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#72

Post by baconner »

tunafishman wrote: post #10
baconner wrote: post #4

Seems to me this hits on a very important point. There's a terrible language barrier that is damaging our ability to come together on this issue in the US. Inequality of income growth is a great metric for indicating that there's a problem, but that language is counterproductive for solving the problems. There's a gut reaction that since "inequality" is the problem that the goal is income equality which (I think most…

This makes a lot of sense. What do you think of the other term often used to describe the same idea: "level playing field" ? Sure you can (inevitably so, maybe) have unequal distributions of wealth but we at least want to rid 'systematic bias' from the list of reasons why.

I think that is a lot better because it implies that each player has to work for it to the best of their abilities, we're just establishing fair rules for the game.

There's another term I'm seeing misinterpreted earlier in the thread too that is relevant. We use mathematical distribution of income growth over the population as the metric and people misinterpret it to mean distribution of wealth in the Marxist sense. It's just a measurement of who has what, but it implies a solution (to some) that has a lot of political baggage.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#73

Post by stvswn »

some-guy wrote: post #36
mmanfrin wrote: post #29

I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access , not equality of 'things'. The Great American Dream is about someone seizing an opportunity; equality means we all have an opportunity to seize an opportunity. Economic Inequality means there is a disproportionate number of opportunities at the top, and very few at the bottom. Not everyone takes those chances, b…

When I think of inequality and opportunity in the US, I think about the education system. Sadly, the quality of K-12 education in the United States is too strongly tied to economic output / wealth / income of a region, which seems regressive to me.

Organizing school districts by geography, and then enforcing that children attend the school nearest them, is a bureaucratic convenience that a) makes it easy to centrally plan resources by forecasting student population, b) eliminates competition for the families' business. In New Orleans they simply started allowing students to attend any school in the city, and the schools' budgets were adjusted for the enrolled population they accepted. The outcomes jumped substantially (there were other reforms as well).

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#74

Post by crimsonalucard »

AC__ wrote: post #23
crimsonalucard wrote: post #14

Don't we all want to be super rich? If we aren't rich, fairness is the next best thing.

I would probably enjoy wealth, yes. However, what I truly desire most would be to understand the Universe. Understand reality. What are we? Are we?(see some of Dr. James Gates work on supersymmetry) So many questions and, it would seem, way too much geopolitical bullshit on this planet to ever truly get any answers.

That's what you say. Biologically we aren't designed that way. We're designed to seek status and achievement as it aids in reproduction. Understanding the universe doesn't help you achieve this goal in anyway. It probably hinders you.

Too many people like to think about themselves as robotic savants desiring only to be logical and more intelligent. This is a fantasy story that is somewhat true but side steps the issue of what we really want. If you were truly intelligent you would know that biologically speaking what we want is sex, money and status.

In front of you have two doors. You go through door A you can have knowledge of the true nature of the universe and the promise that you have to live like a hobo for the rest of your life. In the other door (door B) you have billions of dollars, the adoration of the most beautiful women in the world, the respect of everyone and the promise that you will die without ever knowing the true nature of the universe.

Which door do you choose? Let's be real. (Door B)

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#75

Post by crimsonalucard »

nickff wrote: post #33
nemo44x wrote: post #24

Karl Marx saw a couple flaws in Capitalism, similar to what we practice today. I think he's right about one and wrong about the other. And the part he's right about is what people find unfair. He's right in that Capitalism is not about marking up a product to generate a profit by taking the cost of the goods and the labor to produce it but rather by paying labor less than what their labor is worth. And this is what b…

> "He's right in that Capitalism is not about marking up a product to generate a profit by taking the cost of the goods and the labor to produce it but rather by paying labor less than what their labor is worth. And this is what bothers people. It isn't fair. And they are helpless to change it." This has been clearly demonstrated to be incorrect many times.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price

The definition of price doesn't really demonstrate anything.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#76

Post by unclebucknasty »

dnautics wrote: post #51
dragonwriter wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access, not equality of 'things'. The features which provide access to economic opportunities are, themselves, economic goods, and wealth is largely (though not entirely) fungible, so the two things are not entirely separable. You can't provide an equality of access that meets some common standards of fairness without…

I would argue the opposite. You can't provide an equality of access that meets any given standard of fairness without creating inequality, because now you are favoring those who happen to conform to/ or be better suited to/ or have a better temperament for the new standard over the old.

But, this begs the question, as it assumes equality or fairness in the old standard.

The point seems to be that this is not the case, thus provisions are required as a means of correction.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#77

Post by contingencies »

dnautics wrote: post #67
contingencies wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not Marx's Capital ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital:_Critique_of_Political... - "Marx aimed to reveal the economic patterns underpinning the capitalist mode of production"

And why not Benjamin Tucker's critique of Marx in "State Socialism and Anarchism", wherein he correctly predicts from first principles that state socialism eventually leads to gulags, about 20-30 years before it actually happened. http://praxeology.net/BT-SSA.htm

OK I'll bite. That logic is ridiculous. "Because X led to Y for one instance of Z, X leads to Y (ultimately and permanently) for all Z?" Spot the fallacy. (And what exactly do you mean by 'first principles' in a field of social science and political economy?)

Counter-thoughts from reality: China's doing great, and the US has a higher percentage of its own population incarcerated than any other state in human history.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#78

Post by stvswn »

mmanfrin wrote: post #29

I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access , not equality of 'things'. The Great American Dream is about someone seizing an opportunity; equality means we all have an opportunity to seize an opportunity. Economic Inequality means there is a disproportionate number of opportunities at the top, and very few at the bottom. Not everyone takes those chances, b…

You're talking about equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome?

This is specifically not what Sanders is talking about. He's saying that the basic fact that the rich have become richer than they used to be, relative to everyone else, is wrong and must change.

How do you read this differently?: https://berniesanders.com/issues/income-and-wealth-inequalit...

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#79

Post by crimsonalucard »

nemo44x wrote: post #24

Karl Marx saw a couple flaws in Capitalism, similar to what we practice today. I think he's right about one and wrong about the other. And the part he's right about is what people find unfair. He's right in that Capitalism is not about marking up a product to generate a profit by taking the cost of the goods and the labor to produce it but rather by paying labor less than what their labor is worth. And this is what b…

This is a good way to describe it. He got the first part right, and identified the true flaw of capitalism.

Too many people still associate him and his theory of communism with failed communist states like the soviet union, North Korea or pre-capitalistic China. While the association may or may not be real, his observation about capitalism is unequivocal.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#80

Post by CaptSpify »

secstate wrote: post #71
some-guy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think of inequality and opportunity in the US, I think about the education system. Sadly, the quality of K-12 education in the United States is too strongly tied to economic output / wealth / income of a region, which seems regressive to me.

Having worked as an education beat reporter in a number of really small, really wealth-divided communities for many years, I can tell you that state education is unlikely to ever be the solution to the wealth gap. Honestly, from my time in the trenches of listening to trite, small, yet passionate people discussing some of the harder parts of educating children (i.e. hard to educate when they're coming to school havin…

This is just one part of the equation though. Yes, bad home-environments are worse than bad schools, but we can try to eliminate both
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