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People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

theatlantic.com

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Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#61

Post by baconner »

Randgalt wrote: post #55
rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Distribution" is a neutral term that refers to how quantities are spread out in a population. E.g. you can talk about age, weight, or height distribution in a population.

Age, height, even weight (for the most part) are qualities of humans that cannot be controlled. Wealth is qualitatively different than these attributes. Edit: no one would ever talk about the distribution of "ability at basketball" for example.

Ah no actually its totally valid to talk about the distribution of ability at basketball over a population.

Distribution is just a mathematical concept - it doesn't care what type of variable you are looking at.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#62

Post by mrchucklepants »

nemo44x wrote: post #24

Karl Marx saw a couple flaws in Capitalism, similar to what we practice today. I think he's right about one and wrong about the other. And the part he's right about is what people find unfair. He's right in that Capitalism is not about marking up a product to generate a profit by taking the cost of the goods and the labor to produce it but rather by paying labor less than what their labor is worth. And this is what b…

The answer to the first question is the time-value of money. The capitalist has put his capital into the production and is delaying the return on his investment to the future. The employee is being paid now, regardless of when the income from their labor is realized. This is why a good is sold for more than the worker is paid. The worker is not being paid less than their labor is worth.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#63

Post by secstate »

Randgalt wrote: post #42

The article never defines what fairness is. Another word for fairness is "justice". The article betrays its bias when it analyzes how income is "distributed". Of course, income isn't distributed - it's earned. If person A earns 100x person B then of course it's just. However, if income were indeed distributed, all things being equal, unequal distribution would not be just. So, do you believe wealth is earned by hard…

Not to go all anti-objectivist, but I've yet to see a consistent equation where (quantity of work) * (quality of work) = wealth

There's a myth of the hustle that gets perpetrated whenever a feel-good story about a hard working, intelligent person's success gets bandied about.

The reality is that I'm where I am at least as much because of who I was born to as to how much hard work and diligence I've put into my professional career.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#64

Post by rayiner »

Randgalt wrote: post #55
rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Distribution" is a neutral term that refers to how quantities are spread out in a population. E.g. you can talk about age, weight, or height distribution in a population.

Age, height, even weight (for the most part) are qualities of humans that cannot be controlled. Wealth is qualitatively different than these attributes. Edit: no one would ever talk about the distribution of "ability at basketball" for example.

And yet you still talk about the "distribution" of those quantities. Which undermines your premise that the use of the word "distribution" implies centralized apportionment of some quantity.

"Wealth distribution" is a descriptive, not a prescriptive concept, just like "height distribution." Here is a system applied to some population; let's measure how some quantity ends up distributed among that population based on the behavior of the system.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#65

Post by s73v3r »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #39
jsprogrammer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how is it a solution? Also, the pie is fixed.

> Then how is it a solution? I didn't claim that it was. Maybe you should ask saulrh that. > Also, the pie is fixed. Economic growth has exceeded population growth rather reliably for the last two hundred years or so. The pie is definitely not fixed.

The pie gets bigger, but most people's concrete amount of pie they get generally does not change, while a tiny amount of people end up with the benefits of the expanding pie.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#66

Post by Randgalt »

Randgalt wrote: post #55
rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Distribution" is a neutral term that refers to how quantities are spread out in a population. E.g. you can talk about age, weight, or height distribution in a population.

Age, height, even weight (for the most part) are qualities of humans that cannot be controlled. Wealth is qualitatively different than these attributes. Edit: no one would ever talk about the distribution of "ability at basketball" for example.

In the context of fairness vs equality I've never read/heard a similar comparison to ability.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#67

Post by dnautics »

contingencies wrote: post #21
applecore wrote: post #2

History rhymes. Read Thomas Piketty's Capital and Will Durant's Story of Civilization to understand the cause and recurring nature of economic inequality.

Why not Marx's Capital ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital:_Critique_of_Political... - "Marx aimed to reveal the economic patterns underpinning the capitalist mode of production"

And why not Benjamin Tucker's critique of Marx in "State Socialism and Anarchism", wherein he correctly predicts from first principles that state socialism eventually leads to gulags, about 20-30 years before it actually happened.

http://praxeology.net/BT-SSA.htm

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#68

Post by HelloMcFly »

Randgalt wrote: post #55
rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Distribution" is a neutral term that refers to how quantities are spread out in a population. E.g. you can talk about age, weight, or height distribution in a population.

Age, height, even weight (for the most part) are qualities of humans that cannot be controlled. Wealth is qualitatively different than these attributes. Edit: no one would ever talk about the distribution of "ability at basketball" for example.

I think your point is more pedantry than substance. Yes, wealth is qualitatively different, but referring to it as distributed across a population is still intuitively clear and does not read as an abnormal use of the word.

> So, do you believe wealth is earned by hard work and diligence or that it is distributed by some kind of greater power?

I don't believe either thing absolutely. I believe wealth can be earned by hard work and diligence, but that those things are neither necessary nor sufficient. I believe wealth is often distributed by a greater power in effect if not in literal practice through things like regressive taxation and systematic difference in access quality education that have a disparate (and in my opinion, inequitable) impact on those of lesser means.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#69

Post by Randgalt »

secstate wrote: post #63
Randgalt wrote: post #42

The article never defines what fairness is. Another word for fairness is "justice". The article betrays its bias when it analyzes how income is "distributed". Of course, income isn't distributed - it's earned. If person A earns 100x person B then of course it's just. However, if income were indeed distributed, all things being equal, unequal distribution would not be just. So, do you believe wealth is earned by hard…

Not to go all anti-objectivist, but I've yet to see a consistent equation where (quantity of work) * (quality of work) = wealth There's a myth of the hustle that gets perpetrated whenever a feel-good story about a hard working, intelligent person's success gets bandied about. The reality is that I'm where I am at least as much because of who I was born to as to how much hard work and diligence I've put into my profes…

Even to win the state lottery you have to make the effort to buy a ticket. Are you saying you've done nothing more significant than having good parents?

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#70

Post by Shivetya »

Well too bad most don't understand what fairness is. Far too many are quick to discount the work or effort of others because they do not understand the work they do. Its like, I don't know how to do that but it can't be that hard so its obvious they have too much. This is especially true when comparing labor that is more physically involved than that which requires more application of mental ability.

One thing most miss out on is they want fairness but don't want to give up their stuff or such because it is so much tied to who has how much stuff, money, and more. Far too many will state unequivocally that those richer than them don't pay their "fair" share when those same people contribute a higher percentage and far more wealth into the system.

This is primarily driven by politicians who profit by dividing people. That is what most people miss. They hear about all the disagreement in government as if that is a problem. In the US the government wasn't designed to be fully cooperative, it was designed to make governing difficult so as the federal government would not overrun the states. Where events were not to be treated with such division there are statements to that fact.

Yet politicians spend more time pitting people against each other to preserve their own status and this is why people don't understand what fairness let alone equality is.

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