People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality • Hacker News Board

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#31

Post by hoorayimhelping » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

bweitzman wrote: post #28

rayiner wrote: post #22

> A world in which everyone suffered from horrible poverty would be a perfectly equal one, he says, but few would prefer that to the world in which we now live. Therefore, “equality” can’t be what we really value. Frighteningly fallacious logic. I want a house with a pool. But I don't want one a 2-hour commute from work even if it has a pool. Does that mean I don't value the pool? Stuck through it for shits and giggl…

It does mean that the pool isn't the thing you value most though, since you value your commute more than the pool.

Not necessarily. In this case, OP values the commute more. What if it's a tossup between a 10 minute commute with no backyard and 25 minute commute with a backyard with two trees to put a hammock on. Maybe in that case, OP would take a longer commute to get a shady backyard.

I think that's why the logic is fallacious - it only works for a specific question phrased in a specific way.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#32

Post by jsprogrammer » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26

jsprogrammer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the hypothetical "entire new pie". Just produce it, bro; then there will be no more arguments about inequality.

Yeah, there will. People will complain about who got "more than their fair share" of the new pie.

Then how is it a solution?

Also, the pie is fixed.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#33

Post by nickff » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #24

Karl Marx saw a couple flaws in Capitalism, similar to what we practice today. I think he's right about one and wrong about the other. And the part he's right about is what people find unfair. He's right in that Capitalism is not about marking up a product to generate a profit by taking the cost of the goods and the labor to produce it but rather by paying labor less than what their labor is worth. And this is what b…

>"He's right in that Capitalism is not about marking up a product to generate a profit by taking the cost of the goods and the labor to produce it but rather by paying labor less than what their labor is worth. And this is what bothers people. It isn't fair. And they are helpless to change it."

This has been clearly demonstrated to be incorrect many times.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#34

Post by vinhboy » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

saulrh wrote: post #5

Even "Fairness" isn't quite as useful a metric - where do you draw the line between things that should be eliminated as being unfair and things that are valuable culture and individuality? Parental intelligence is strongly causally coupled with their children's future intelligence simply through their working vocabulary and talkativeness, which is clearly unfair from the perspective of the newborn child; how do you f…

> people seem to be reliably made happier by throwing chunks of the pie on the floor

That's a really bold statement to make. Where is your proof? Are you just making it up based on your own biases?

If we're just going by anecdotes, then I can honestly say, I have never met anyone who wants to destroy other people's piece of the pie.

If anything, I've met more people adamant about defending other people's pie pieces. Like you, for example.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#35

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

mmanfrin wrote: post #29

I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access , not equality of 'things'. The Great American Dream is about someone seizing an opportunity; equality means we all have an opportunity to seize an opportunity. Economic Inequality means there is a disproportionate number of opportunities at the top, and very few at the bottom. Not everyone takes those chances, b…

[deleted]

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#36

Post by some-guy » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

mmanfrin wrote: post #29

I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access , not equality of 'things'. The Great American Dream is about someone seizing an opportunity; equality means we all have an opportunity to seize an opportunity. Economic Inequality means there is a disproportionate number of opportunities at the top, and very few at the bottom. Not everyone takes those chances, b…

When I think of inequality and opportunity in the US, I think about the education system. Sadly, the quality of K-12 education in the United States is too strongly tied to economic output / wealth / income of a region, which seems regressive to me.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#37

Post by nicklaf » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

People indeed want fairness. This is a little bit obvious, though. Furthermore, to say that people aren't generally "FOR equality" is a straw man.

It is imperative that those who might claim to be against the idea of "equality" for some abstract philosophical reason to separately ask themselves why they can't also be AGAINST egregious and institutionalized inequality.

Being against both universal equality and egregious inequality is an entirely consistent position. Setting up the utopia of universal equality as a straw man in order to avoid addressing the latter question is dishonest and immoral.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#38

Post by vinhboy » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

mmanfrin wrote: post #29

I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access , not equality of 'things'. The Great American Dream is about someone seizing an opportunity; equality means we all have an opportunity to seize an opportunity. Economic Inequality means there is a disproportionate number of opportunities at the top, and very few at the bottom. Not everyone takes those chances, b…

Bingo. And most people knows this. But conservatives wants everyone to think it means "wealth redistribution".

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#39

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:59 PM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #32

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there will. People will complain about who got "more than their fair share" of the new pie.

Then how is it a solution? Also, the pie is fixed.

> Then how is it a solution?

I didn't claim that it was. Maybe you should ask saulrh that.

> Also, the pie is fixed.

Economic growth has exceeded population growth rather reliably for the last two hundred years or so. The pie is definitely not fixed.

Re: People Want Fairness, Not Economic Equality

#40

Post by atom-morgan » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 9:59 PM UTC

vinhboy wrote: post #38

mmanfrin wrote: post #29

I've always felt that when people talk about economic equality, they are talking about equality of access , not equality of 'things'. The Great American Dream is about someone seizing an opportunity; equality means we all have an opportunity to seize an opportunity. Economic Inequality means there is a disproportionate number of opportunities at the top, and very few at the bottom. Not everyone takes those chances, b…

Bingo. And most people knows this. But conservatives wants everyone to think it means "wealth redistribution".

Then why be so specific by saying income inequality?