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Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

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Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#131

Post by d2xdy2 »

bphogan wrote: post #99

edits to correct typos made on my phone. I am skeptical of developer bootcamps because they often aren't open enrollment. You generally have to have the aptitude and background to get through their admissions process and interview. That weeds out some people right away. They are right to have this admissions process, because if you let everyone in, lots of people won't make it, and then the promise of good paying job…

> I work at a school that has that right now, and we do have lots of people who don't make it very far.

When it comes to those "who don't make it very far"; how do you handle tuition and possible refunds?

I'm not really advocating that they deserve or should get a full refund; I'm just skeptical that an open enrollment type thing where anyone can join (like I've experienced with a MOOC)-- you'll have a lot of students starting out, and end up with very few. The one's who couldn't make it should have been screened out, as they're both spending a lot of their own money on this, spending a lot of their own time on this, and potentially taking time away from others with remediation or tutoring-- at the very least, there could be various levels of classes for them to work things out before being introduced into the subjects where they might tend to fail.

From the perspective of someone who has been taught and who has taught, in both cases I prefer small group sizes of people I have some confidence in being relatively adept at what's going on-- the need to reiterate and reintroduce certain core concepts on things goes down a bit as well.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#132

Post by sotojuan »

ljk wrote: post #17

Isn't it more important to focus on the concepts like discrete math, data structures/algorithm, OS, etc? Is it really beneficial for there to be a surplus of programmers who only learned how to use libraries?

> Is it really beneficial for there to be a surplus of programmers who only learned how to use libraries?

Of course, then you can pay them less.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#133

Post by bdcravens »

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

I agree on the point that programs that are selling a dream are a disservice.

I do know of many CS grads that were woefully unprepared to write production code until they had a few weeks of real learning.

Myself, I have no CS degree, and have been a professional developer since 1999, in multiple languages, and have had the opportunity to run user groups, speak at conferences, serve as technical editors in many big name programming books, and more. I'm FAR from exceptional; I'd say I'm only mildly above average in terms of intellect and skill. My point is that a great career can come by many paths.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#134

Post by edgyswingset »

Apocryphon wrote: post #111
LordKano wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's akin to how a couple of days of training could prepare someone to work at one of those oil change places but it won't make him or her into a car mechanic. These bootcamps can teach people the basics of programming and if they have the interest and aptitude, they can grow into mature, experienced developers.

The eternal problem is that academia is meant to create theoretical physicists when industry needs more mechanics.

I think a lot of it has to do with an academic identity crisis. My degree was a strange mish-mash of purely theoretical stuff and purely engineering stuff that felt more like a set of topics ABET wanted covered rather than a path towards either deeper Computer Science or Software Engineering.

What I'd love to see is schools begin to take on various career-track options for students. Like theory and want to go to grad school? Take the theoretical track. Interested in front-end and mobile dev? Take some in-depth classes that cover fundamentals in that area. Distributed Systems? That could have oodles of classes, too. This is the way many other engineering degrees are structured. Somehow we're in this weird position where we're making students take electives which are relevant to industry so they can go get a good job, but they still have to learn how to write turing machines on paper.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#136

Post by jasey »

southphillyman wrote: post #43
roymurdock wrote: post #3

Can anyone in the app development world speak to whether or not there actually is a shortage of Android devs? Or is Google just trying to spark innovation by getting more engineers into the Android ecosystem?

Why not just hire experienced java devs? I completed half of an android MOOC course and for the most part it was just Java + mobile design patterns. The android specific stuff (build tools/IDE, configuration, version partitioning, etc) can be learned on the fly I assume.

As someone who has developed an app for Android (going into it knowing Java really well) and now porting it to iOS using swift ( not knowing Swift at all), the language is actually the least of your worries. It's like you say the tooling, the paradigms, the UI and libraries, SQLite etc which are the biggest learning challenges. Also mobile dev is unique in its self (limited hardware & no reliable network conn)

That's been my experience anyway...

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#137

Post by tdaltonc »

bphogan wrote: post #99

edits to correct typos made on my phone. I am skeptical of developer bootcamps because they often aren't open enrollment. You generally have to have the aptitude and background to get through their admissions process and interview. That weeds out some people right away. They are right to have this admissions process, because if you let everyone in, lots of people won't make it, and then the promise of good paying job…

> open enrollment

Do you mean that the program should be made available to anyone who wants to take it? What if there just isn't enough capacity to take that many people?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#138

Post by driverdan »

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

> It does a disservice to everyone. And to me are just a scam.

You're flat out wrong and you're doing a disservice to yourself and the industry by dismissing them out of hand.

I've talked to quite a few people who have gone through bootcamps or hired people from bootcamps. Many come out completely capable of filling a junior dev role.

We hired a junior dev straight out of a bootcamp and she has been great. Not only is she competent but she adds a different perspective to the team which is valuable.

One caveat though. Not everyone is suitable for a bootcamp. You have to be an intelligent, fast learner who wants to continue learning and is aware of your limitations.

Employers have to have reasonable expectations too. You can't expect someone from a bootcamp to be committing code on their first day, first week, or possibly even first month (depending on the complexity of your code base). At first they will take much longer on tasks than a CS major or someone with experience. But they've clearly shown a willingness to learn and learn quickly so it doesn't last.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#139

Post by aioprisan »

bigtunacan wrote: post #64
MangezBien wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude, that I see frequently on HN, isn't very helpful. I taught myself to write code in a little under three months and immediately got a job as a Jr. Dev. I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program. Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Looking back at myself at 18, t…

Saying "you will have enough skill to be useful" is naive if you are basing it on your own personal experience of learning to "write code in a little under three months and immediately got a job as a Jr. Dev". +++ On My Personal Experience +++ I also learned to write code on my own and had a junior dev job with no college experience. I then attended college part time to get my CS degree because 1) There are a large s…

Did you really expect the people who chose to drop out to be counted in job placement rates? I believe the same standard is used when talking about placing graduates to jobs from colleges, so I don't find that misleading.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#140

Post by bphogan »

d2xdy2 wrote: post #131
bphogan wrote: post #99

edits to correct typos made on my phone. I am skeptical of developer bootcamps because they often aren't open enrollment. You generally have to have the aptitude and background to get through their admissions process and interview. That weeds out some people right away. They are right to have this admissions process, because if you let everyone in, lots of people won't make it, and then the promise of good paying job…

> I work at a school that has that right now, and we do have lots of people who don't make it very far. When it comes to those "who don't make it very far"; how do you handle tuition and possible refunds? I'm not really advocating that they deserve or should get a full refund; I'm just skeptical that an open enrollment type thing where anyone can join (like I've experienced with a MOOC)-- you'll have a lot of student…

I agree with all of this.

But I've seen people who came from nothing rise to the occasion and turn things around. And if we'd screened them out, the world would be worse off for it. The perspective they bring demonstrates the true, non-politicized idea of diversity.

And so that's what I fear happens if the industry picks this bootcamp thing and runs with it; that we'll end up with a very homogeneous group of developers. People from middle income families where education was held in wide regard and who had parents encourage them to explore things on their own.

Yea, as a teacher, I really enjoy it when everyone in my class wants to learn and is highly motivated. But I also enjoy getting them there. :)

Refunds? I really don't know. But this is why traditional schools can compete - they have the resources for tutoring, remediation, and open enrollment.

Of course, if all the motivated people skip that and do bootcamps because it's a "guaranteed" path to a job, well....

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