I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…
Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
61–70 of 187 posts
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#62Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#63Students should most definitely be able to write a decent app after a class like this. Interface and backend communication aren't that hard, nor to they require an engineering background. Engineering problems, UX design, etc. are all likely beyond scope.
It's important to identify where on 'the scale' this lies: Google creates advanced tools that allow people to develop products using simpler concepts. This program targets the latter audience, which is a sensible business decision.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#64I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…
This attitude, that I see frequently on HN, isn't very helpful. I taught myself to write code in a little under three months and immediately got a job as a Jr. Dev. I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program. Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Looking back at myself at 18, t…
+++ On My Personal Experience +++
I also learned to write code on my own and had a junior dev job with no college experience. I then attended college part time to get my CS degree because
1) There are a large set of potential employers that will not consider hiring if you do not have a degree; so in times of job scarcity your options will be limited.
2) The subset of employers that will hire someone without a degree is then further broken into a subset that will pay you less since they know you have less options not having a degree.
+++ On Dev Bootcamps +++
1) 12 solid intensive weeks of learning to write code may be enough to get someone an entry level job if they learn/retain enough to get through the interview process. Having this as a focused class room where assistance and guidance is provided is likely of benefit to some people; so they are not entirely useless.
2) In my experience bootcamps have either not published or have been deceptive with job placement numbers. As a for example; I know of a bootcamp that published a 100% job placement rate. This was deceptive since they did not publish that 1) More than 75% of the attendees did not complete the bootcamp and so they were not counted (only graduate placement was counted), but they still were out of pocket for tuition costs. 2) Being hired for ANY job was considered as a successful job placement, but only about 1/3rd of the graduates actually found jobs that were in the field, the other 2/3rd were counted as successes because they were employed (e.g. if you found a job as a waitress you would count towards the success metric.)
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
meanwhile I am paying ~$8,000 for a full computer science masters from GA Tech (OMSCS). Different class of education, but I feel like I am getting a better deal.
How hard was it to get accepted into the program?
I applied when it first opened for applications. I was not admitted. Two session later they reached out and mentioned that my application was flagged for re-evaluation and asked if I was interested. I said I was and a few months later I was accepted.
It is a great program, I highly recommend it.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#66I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…
I found that CS theory was great, once I had the practical experience to recognize how to use it. In a sense I feel like we do things backwards. You should work in industry for a couple years, then learn the theory you learn when getting a CS degree. The software development career path isn't setup like this now, but if it were, I feel like we would all be better off.
I credit a lot of my ability to learn to my bachelor's degree, though. I wouldn't recommend most people skip college, and I've considered going back for a MS in CS.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…
> A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. No, they are not. A good developer is someone who, by virtue of the fact that he or she has to write software whose theoretical underpinnings are rooted in CS, must be good in CS as well. It's ok if you're not a CS person, but stop generalising and saying no dev has to be. > There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can bui…
And it just so happens there there are quite of lot of 6 figure jobs that solely involve building crud apps by gluing together frameworks.
You can shit it on all you want, and talk about how "us real computer scientists are solving the Hard Problems by building compilers and OSs".
But at the end of the day, the person going to the bootcamp doesn't care about this opinion. All they care about is that they were able to spend 3 months of there time in order to double or triple their salary.
And the only other price they have to pay is having to put up with people like you shitting on them for not working on Hard Problems. And to me, that seems like a very small price to pay.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#68I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…
Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#69Can anyone in the app development world speak to whether or not there actually is a shortage of Android devs? Or is Google just trying to spark innovation by getting more engineers into the Android ecosystem?
Demand for mobile developers in general is off the charts, and still climbing. It's kind of absurd, really - the going rate for mobile devs has increased 200-300% over the past 3 years amongst colleagues I know, which I think is almost entirely attributable to the demand growth in this sector and the relatively slow growth of the talent pool.
Looking at Android vs. iOS devs, both are in high demand but Android especially so. Overall demand for Android doesn't feel particularly pronounced, but the talent pool of experienced, competent Android devs is dramatically smaller than the counterpart in iOS-land.
The key here is experienced, competent devs. We've interviewed a lot of Java people with minimal Android experience trying to make the leap over - it rarely goes well. Mobile development is substantially more complex than "knows Java and can work Android Studio".
There are a few posts replying to yours that I want to respond to, but I'll just do it in one shot instead of littering a bunch of replies everywhere:
RE: simply hiring experienced Java devs. This doesn't usually work - good mobile devs are also at least partially UX people - we spend a lot of time knee-deep in UI, and consumer expectations for the fit and finish of apps are high. Someone who has completed the "Hello World" equivalent of Android learning has done exactly that - finished "Hello World". It in no way implies the ability to build apps that aren't an embarrassment to the Play Store. There is a vast amount of domain knowledge here, and the gap between an app built by someone who merely knows the API vs. someone who knows mobile apps is pretty darned wide.
RE: iOS gaining a larger share of revenue. This is true, but relatively inconsequential to most mobile devs. Outside of gaming the number of businesses directly monetizing apps is dropping. The bulk of attention for non-game apps go towards service-oriented apps (see: Uber, AirBnb, Facebook) for whom "app store revenue" is a nonsensical concept. There is lots, and lots* of work for companies that don't rely on direct monetization (i.e., app sales and in-app purchases) to live (and increasingly so).
RE: the market balancing itself according to supply/demand. Yes, this is happening, but it's happening more slowly than the demand is rising, so overall wages are still rising. Much of this is because it's non-trivial to learn the domain knowledge necessary to really do this well, and consumer expectations on app quality is high enough that (to be charitable) the value of beginner-level devs vs. experienced devs is non-linear.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#70I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…
I found that CS theory was great, once I had the practical experience to recognize how to use it. In a sense I feel like we do things backwards. You should work in industry for a couple years, then learn the theory you learn when getting a CS degree. The software development career path isn't setup like this now, but if it were, I feel like we would all be better off.
They hack around on computers in high school and get to being pretty good at programming, then go to college and pick up the theory side.
Fundamentally, I think trying to get people to be developers who are only interested in money is a losing proposition.