A Tale of Two Ports: Automation at Oakland vs. Rotterdam • Hacker News Board

Re: A Tale of Two Ports: Automation at Oakland vs. Rotterdam

#51

Post by tedks » Mon, Oct 19, 2015, 8:42 PM UTC

lambdapie wrote: post #47

tedks wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and the fact that the state ignores violent crime when unions commit it It is absolutely absurd for you to say this, when unions and workers attempting to unionize have and still continue to be slaughtered for their attempts to gain basic human rights at their workplace. I would say such a misstatement is laughable but it would be poor taste to make comedy of the deaths of so many.

This is what I was referring to: http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/08/22/why_do_w... Can you give any similar examples of violence against unions, say within the last 20 years and in the US?

Your constraints are inappropriate for a world where capitalism is global. If you drink Coke or wear Nike you're directly supporting the murder of workers attempting to unionize and their blood is on your hands.

But, even in the US union organizers are frequently suppressed, either violently or through indirect threats and intimidation. It takes little scholarship to discover this and the absence of such indicates that you're more personally interested in having an argument, where you fight for your side to be considered correct, than actually learning, where you observe evidence in a nonbiased way and integrate that evidence into your beliefs. So it would make little difference for me to give any "similar examples" of the (utterly biased and as other commenters have pointed out, incorrect) source you've provided.

As another aside, it takes a special sort of person to, in the struggle between the powerful and the powerless, side with the powerful as you have here. I hope you contemplate this as you decide what person you are in the future.

Re: A Tale of Two Ports: Automation at Oakland vs. Rotterdam

#52

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Oct 20, 2015, 1:02 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #42

Frondo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the kind of quality of life a strong union will get you as a worker. No wonder the biggest business interests have undergone a decades-long propaganda campaign against them.

>>That's the kind of quality of life a strong union will get you as a worker. The flip side of the coin is that the quality of air you will breathe every single day is guaranteed to be abysmal, and air quality has a very strong inverse correlation with life span.

Why's the air so bad? Because of the bunker oil used on ships, or some other reason?

Re: A Tale of Two Ports: Automation at Oakland vs. Rotterdam

#53

Post by lambdapie » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 3:52 AM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #50

lambdapie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I was referring to: http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/08/22/why_do_w... Can you give any similar examples of violence against unions, say within the last 20 years and in the US?

Let me first say, I appreciate the spirit in which you're keeping this going; we're civil, we're responding to things, it's great! It's how online chats should be. I read that article, you're right, at first glance, it's pretty troubling. Seeing the source (one of the oft-propagandistic, oft-badly-sourced Real Clear sites) made me want to follow up on the claims inside. The Ohio man who was shot, it isn't clear from…

Unfortunately I don't have time to go into this more, but I also appreciate the tone of your reply.

A very brief summary of my position is that there is a set of "right" laws, and that is the free market with redistribution through taxation. This is not an arbitrary choice, but one justified by classical economics. Anything good for the poor that you would want to accomplish would be better done by redistribution than by unions. Except, of course, pleasing the members of a particular union, who might stand to benefit at the expense of other workers if they could increase their power.

Outsourcing a great example of this. It is actually good for people in the countries where work is outsourced to. They get more for their labor than they would otherwise, even if they get less than what a Western worker makes. If they showed "solidarity" and demanded Western wages, they would get nothing.