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How the war on drugs creates violence

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#101

Post by mindslight »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #34
fsloth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea if gangsters partake in lobbying but I find it hard to believe it would be the main cause for the continuing policies. Some hold the view that the war on drugs is mainly ideological. Chomsky has quite a critical view of the matter. E.g. "So there are two possibilities: Either those conducting the Drug War are lunatics, or they have another purpose." http://hightimes.com/read/high-times-interview-noam-c…

What's interesting is that the CIA has been proven to be involved in the drug trade, and they need untraceable money for covert operations quite frequently. Also this trade is so lucrative, that massive banks are quite involved in it too. What's more, large corporations in the US are py directly involve in selling dangerous narcotics around the world, it's called to tobacco and it's the most lethal drug sold in the w…

You know the cops, they got a network for the toxic rock!

Nearly a hundred comments and this seems to be the only reference to this major facet of the drug "war". It's amazing how short-term and steered "our" attention span is.

And of course now we've got a new instance of the familiar pattern - a Heroin epidemic a decade after beginning colonization of Afghanistan...

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#102

Post by JoeAltmaier »

pstuart wrote: post #77
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, car accidents, child neglect, spouse abuse, healthcare, time lost to work... Some of those other things are regulated as well. E.g. You can't rappel in many state parks, because idiots kept getting hurt and costing the state $$$ in rescue attempts to remote locations. Its not all cruel government heedlessly restricting rights. That's an immature viewpoint. Count the cost and see that nothing is free.

Count the cost of prohibition and do the math. It's cheaper to not spend billions of dollars on prisons and courts then to treat drug abuse like the health issue that it is. Perhaps the police need to come and kick down your door and throw you in prison to keep you from drinking any more alcohol. You know, for your own good and to protect society.

They'd have the wrong house :) I don't drink.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#103

Post by JoeAltmaier »

sixQuarks wrote: post #68
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, car accidents, child neglect, spouse abuse, healthcare, time lost to work... Some of those other things are regulated as well. E.g. You can't rappel in many state parks, because idiots kept getting hurt and costing the state $$$ in rescue attempts to remote locations. Its not all cruel government heedlessly restricting rights. That's an immature viewpoint. Count the cost and see that nothing is free.

So that means you ARE for prohibition of alcohol. Read your last sentence: count the cost and see that nothing is free. Do you think prohibition of alcohol had no costs? Same thing with drugs - which the article pointed out. The cost of keeping it illegal far outweighs the potential costs resulting from irresponsible users (which we still pay for even when it is illegal)

Alcohol is regulated in almost every state in the US. Because its dangerous.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#104

Post by oldmanjay »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #88
avn2109 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that's because the recreational drug doesn't come with an MSDS/safe use documentation, because it was bought on the street.

Or perhaps because its recreational, and more fun is better, folks have no self control. They are called 'addictive' for a reason.

Or perhaps it's some unknown combination of all the factors that you can think of, but no one really knows because the very illegality makes it difficult to determine.

This means logically, you have to ignore the preconceptions, because they have no basis in reality, just your biases.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#106

Post by pstuart »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #102
pstuart wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Count the cost of prohibition and do the math. It's cheaper to not spend billions of dollars on prisons and courts then to treat drug abuse like the health issue that it is. Perhaps the police need to come and kick down your door and throw you in prison to keep you from drinking any more alcohol. You know, for your own good and to protect society.

They'd have the wrong house :) I don't drink.

Well that would be too bad, because it's happening today over drugs. Mistakes happen, and if it's to protect citizens from hurting themselves then it's all for good, right?

Meanwhile people are dying all over the world due to the Drug War but you can feel smug and secure knowing that you are above it all.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#107

Post by reddytowns »

shocks wrote: post #27
reddytowns wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I make a mistake on my taxes, or lets say, park in the wrong place, I get fined. If someone does heroin and gets hooked, they get a treatment program. What is the difference? Why, according to you, should I be punished, while the person on heroin should get all these treatment options opened up to them? Where is my "parked my car in the wrong place" rehab program?

Please stop saying I've said things that I haven't. We can't have a conversation if you do that. I didn't say you should be punished for doing your taxes badly. Your parking example is terrible. If you get a parking fine then you must have ignored a sign or not seen it. It's entirely possible there was no sign and you legitimately didn't realised you parked somewhere you shouldn't. There are appeals processes for exa…

It's hard to have a conversation if you just tap dance around all my points without addressing any of them.

Again, why, according to you, are doing illegal drugs treated as a problem that people need to be helped with, yet other illegal behaviour is the responsibility of the individual? Or aren't you saying that, and in that case, what are you saying?

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#108

Post by lm______ »

mindslight wrote: post #101
Synaesthesia wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's interesting is that the CIA has been proven to be involved in the drug trade, and they need untraceable money for covert operations quite frequently. Also this trade is so lucrative, that massive banks are quite involved in it too. What's more, large corporations in the US are py directly involve in selling dangerous narcotics around the world, it's called to tobacco and it's the most lethal drug sold in the w…

You know the cops, they got a network for the toxic rock! Nearly a hundred comments and this seems to be the only reference to this major facet of the drug "war". It's amazing how short-term and steered "our" attention span is. And of course now we've got a new instance of the familiar pattern - a Heroin epidemic a decade after beginning colonization of Afghanistan...

And it happens at all levels of dealing too, not just the CIA flying in bricks... I know people who have been robbed by the cops for drugs.

One friend got off with only a warning for having 10 ounces of high-grade weed, which were then "confiscated". Another, who has been selling cocaine since his mid-teens, begrudgingly gives out 8-balls to a few cops that recognize his cars and pull him over at any opportunity.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#109

Post by TeMPOraL »

mindslight wrote: post #100
TeMPOraL wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are called 'addictive' for a reason. A reason that has little to do with recreation and a lot with altering brain chemistry.

You're not really refuting his point. It ultimately comes down to the concept of personal responsibility. Drinking does not absolve one of their subsequent actions and choices, regardless of their subsequent "mental state". Any choice to have an "unsound mind" was made while of sound mind, and thus responsibility for all results lie with the person themselves. Being mentally impaired doesn't magically transform someo…

There's an article I linked to in another comment subthread, it deals in details with this issue - in particular, when we should talk about personal responsibility and when just call it an illness.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10424645

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#110

Post by ptaipale »

wz1000 wrote: post #87
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recreational drugs typically get overused, to the point of toxicity. Just do a 'ride-along' with your emergency room nurse friend any weekend evening, and keep count of overdose cases - prescribed vs recreational.

The parent commenter was implying that the public wouldn't stand for having recreational drugs being manufactured by regular pharm companies, because they were somehow more dangerous. I pointed out that pharm companies already manufacture dangerous chemicals, that include these recreational drugs.

Yes, but the fact that a company manufactures pharmaceuticals that are known to be dangerous but used in a controlled way (e.g. narcotic substances used for sedating persons when making operations by qualified medical personnel) is perceived by the public highly differently from manufacturing and delivering the same narcotics for recreational use.

And I think this is quite understandable, and not really about "war on drugs", it's about corporate responsibility.

Many companies are taking some flak for supplying completely legal chemical substances to the public (say, sugar drinks).

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