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Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#21

Post by Asbostos »

kragen wrote: post #11

The only "online piracy" I see here is when Elsevier demands US$30 from you to get a copy of a paper written by scientists paid for by your tax dollars, who paid Elsevier page fees to publish it . Elsevier and similar companies are the thieves here, and they have a hell of a lot of nerve to be accusing scientists of "stealing" and "piracy" for working to create the very knowledge Elsevier shamelessly exploits. (Even…

Scientists still love giving up their rights to Elsevier though. They're as much to blame as the publisher.

Maybe something would start to happen if scientists preferentially avoided citing non-openly published papers. They won't though, because their work is too competitive, but it might help to put a damper on it.

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#22

Post by TeMPOraL »

kragen wrote: post #11

The only "online piracy" I see here is when Elsevier demands US$30 from you to get a copy of a paper written by scientists paid for by your tax dollars, who paid Elsevier page fees to publish it . Elsevier and similar companies are the thieves here, and they have a hell of a lot of nerve to be accusing scientists of "stealing" and "piracy" for working to create the very knowledge Elsevier shamelessly exploits. (Even…

Agree completely with the idea of your comment, but I have to nitpick on one thing:

> So did the Pope when he sentenced Galileo to life in prison for promoting heliocentrism.

As far as we can tell, Galileo was persecuted by the Pope not because of science, but because Galileo was basically an asshole, who abused his friendship with the Pope and then kept venting out against him. The issue was strictly political. See [0] and especially the top comment[1] under the article.

Also, apparently, Galileo was right for the wrong reasons - he lucked into the right theory even though evidence available at the time didn't substantiate his views.

[0] - http://lesswrong.com/lw/lq6/the_galileo_affair_who_was_on_th...

[1] - http://lesswrong.com/lw/lq6/the_galileo_affair_who_was_on_th...

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#23

Post by Asbostos »

OlafLostViking wrote: post #2

I'm in the lucky position to have access to most publications legally. But I cannot imagine what to do if our library wouldn't have subscriptions. The prices most publishers are demanding are insanely high and simply not financable if you need just a dozen papers or so. Especially considering that the research and the the writing is done by scientists, the review is done by other scientists. For free. The writers eve…

Prices for anything don't have to be justified. The market decides them. It turns out that people really want to pay those publishers, so they can charge high fees.

It also turns out scientists really want to publish their work in those closed-access journals. Whatever attracts them to do that is what justifies the high prices. What attracts them? Universities use them as a proxy to judge job applicants. Blame universities for using such an expensive "interview" process that permanently shafts much of the worlds scientific knowledge as a side effect.

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#24

Post by kragen »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #22
kragen wrote: post #11

The only "online piracy" I see here is when Elsevier demands US$30 from you to get a copy of a paper written by scientists paid for by your tax dollars, who paid Elsevier page fees to publish it . Elsevier and similar companies are the thieves here, and they have a hell of a lot of nerve to be accusing scientists of "stealing" and "piracy" for working to create the very knowledge Elsevier shamelessly exploits. (Even…

Agree completely with the idea of your comment, but I have to nitpick on one thing: > So did the Pope when he sentenced Galileo to life in prison for promoting heliocentrism. As far as we can tell, Galileo was persecuted by the Pope not because of science, but because Galileo was basically an asshole, who abused his friendship with the Pope and then kept venting out against him. The issue was strictly political. See…

While everything you say is true (as far as I know) it's still the case that being an asshole and complaining about your friends is not an adequate justification for life imprisonment. In fact, even the Church at the time knew that, which is why they used heliocentrism as an excuse, which has to be one of the worst institutional decisions ever.

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#26

Post by TeMPOraL »

stegosaurus wrote: post #17
ajuc wrote: post #3

Good for them. Living in developing country you learn to ignore copyright or you never learn anything. I don't know if it was invented as a way for developed countries to keep competive advantage, but it sure would work that way if people actually obeyed.

Mmm. As a poor person growing up in Britain I hold the same viewpoint. The whole argument around piracy and copyright seems to revolve around this idea of being 'too cheap' or 'not wanting to support'. When 10GBP for some music or 100+GBP for some software package (Office, for example) is 50% or more of your monthly pay, or you have no income at all, none of those factors come in to the decision. It's the only realis…

I concur. I owe my whole career to piracy[0]. Now that I earn money I am happy to buy stuff I need and give back to society, creators, etc. But to a teenager from a middle-class family of a developing country, piracy was strictly about access to otherwise unavailable educational material.

It's an open secret that Adobe and Microsoft had a model of non-enforcing piracy for private use, and I think it's pretty good. It's totally fair to charge business licenses, but in the area of education and science, limiting access is holding back the progress of the entire human race.

Greed is trying to capture all the value you create. Don't do it. Let others have some, and then they'll happily let you have some of theirs.

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10397694

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#27

Post by kragen »

Asbostos wrote: post #21
kragen wrote: post #11

The only "online piracy" I see here is when Elsevier demands US$30 from you to get a copy of a paper written by scientists paid for by your tax dollars, who paid Elsevier page fees to publish it . Elsevier and similar companies are the thieves here, and they have a hell of a lot of nerve to be accusing scientists of "stealing" and "piracy" for working to create the very knowledge Elsevier shamelessly exploits. (Even…

Scientists still love giving up their rights to Elsevier though. They're as much to blame as the publisher. Maybe something would start to happen if scientists preferentially avoided citing non-openly published papers. They won't though, because their work is too competitive, but it might help to put a damper on it.

One problem with that is that, as I understand it (I'm not an academic), not citing a relevant paper makes you look ignorant and can lead to accusations of plagiarism or attempts to steal credit; more subtly, it can lead to the reviewer whose paper you didn't cite recommending that your paper not be published. So it's not about being competitive, exactly; it's more about being cooperative. If you don't cooperate, other researchers won't cooperate with you, and your career will founder.

For the most part, I don't think scientists care about the issue, except for being a bit annoyed with Elsevier. Most people don't care about most things that don't affect them directly. Scientists are people too. So rather than invest effort in activism, they mostly focus on their jobs and their families and stuff.

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#28

Post by TeMPOraL »

kragen wrote: post #24
TeMPOraL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree completely with the idea of your comment, but I have to nitpick on one thing: > So did the Pope when he sentenced Galileo to life in prison for promoting heliocentrism. As far as we can tell, Galileo was persecuted by the Pope not because of science, but because Galileo was basically an asshole, who abused his friendship with the Pope and then kept venting out against him. The issue was strictly political. See…

While everything you say is true (as far as I know) it's still the case that being an asshole and complaining about your friends is not an adequate justification for life imprisonment. In fact, even the Church at the time knew that, which is why they used heliocentrism as an excuse, which has to be one of the worst institutional decisions ever.

> which has to be one of the worst institutional decisions ever

That is very, very true. That PR fuckup carried on to this day and age. Three and a half centuries later, people still blame them for that.

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#29

Post by kragen »

masklinn wrote: post #19
dalke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a cheaper solution for foundational papers. Go to your library and use interlibrary loan. Some libraries also have copying services. I've been trying track down a paper for the Tanimoto similarity. Quoting Wikipedia, "many sources[3] cite an unavailable IBM Technical Report [4] as the seminal reference", where [4] is: Tanimoto, T. (17 Nov 1957). "An Elementary Mathematical theory of Classification and Predict…

> There's a cheaper solution for foundational papers. Go to your library and use interlibrary loan. Not sure that's really an option when not in the US.

I think people in the US don't realize how much better the US library system is than most of the rest of the world. Even the developed world!

Re: Academics sharing paywalled papers with a codeword on Twitter

#30

Post by vortico »

Asbostos wrote: post #21
kragen wrote: post #11

The only "online piracy" I see here is when Elsevier demands US$30 from you to get a copy of a paper written by scientists paid for by your tax dollars, who paid Elsevier page fees to publish it . Elsevier and similar companies are the thieves here, and they have a hell of a lot of nerve to be accusing scientists of "stealing" and "piracy" for working to create the very knowledge Elsevier shamelessly exploits. (Even…

Scientists still love giving up their rights to Elsevier though. They're as much to blame as the publisher. Maybe something would start to happen if scientists preferentially avoided citing non-openly published papers. They won't though, because their work is too competitive, but it might help to put a damper on it.

Random guess, but it seems that 50% of journals in the fields I've been in are owned by Elsevier, even if it doesn't appear to be at first. And yes, a publication in an Elsevier or Springer journal rather than a new open-access one can make a difference of prestige that could change which university I work for in the next 4 years, for example.
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