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Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

aeon.co

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Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#11
Is he saying that because other animals also seem to exhibit free will, and because some humans appear to be more impulsive than others, that makes it possible without a "supernatural ability to transcend the laws of nature"?

Buried in the article, rather than in an introductory definition of the terms used, is the line:

"for some, a really free will is one that is not determined by anything – one that stands outside the causal chains of nature. Such a person might feel cheated when offered instead a set of capacities that we share (to a degree) with cats and chickens."

Surely there's nothing at all novel here. We've long known that other animals have varying degrees of autonomy.

I also don't think that any determinists would argue (or even ever have argued) against the existence of this kind of free will. Just that it is only free if you also accept that Bertrand Russell's table is "oblong, brown and shiny, to the touch it is smooth and cool and hard", and choose to go no deeper.

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#12
post #3

We desperately need a new way of thinking about free will. We really don't. The author of the article has written off hundreds of years of philosophical debate about determinist free will versus indeterminism and decided that his interpretation of free will, which falls firmly in the causal indeterminism camp, is the right way to think about things. Admittedly that's the nice one, because determinism is hard when it…

> The fact is whether or not we have free will is largely irrelevant.

I think perhaps more proper would be to say, whether there is an underlying determinism or not is irrelevant (and that's what Dennett is saying). Free will (as in freedom) is relevant.

And about that question, it's quite easy to:

- Build a deterministic system on top of non-deterministic one. Just take a lot of indeterminism and average it. For example, we do that with computer gates, which are deterministic, but built on very non-deterministic (random) behavior of atoms.

- Build a non-deterministic system on top of deterministic one. Take a pseudorandom generator and keep the seed/algorithm for yourself. For example, we do that in operating systems, where operating system itself is deterministic but each application lives in non-deterministic environment, because it doesn't know what other applications or processes are running inside the system.

So just going from atoms to applications, we switched from non-determinism to determinism and back!

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#13
post #8
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ISTM that the hundreds of years of debate comes from a unfortunate misunderstanding provoked by many centuries of religious thought: that to be free we need some kind of "soul" apart from physical reality. (The article mentions that) But I don't fully understand why so many smart people, including non-believers, can't see the obvious: that determinism has nothing to do with free will. Free will is just a mechanism of…

that determinism has nothing to do with free will The theory goes that, on an atomic level, interactions between particles is a deterministic process - it's wholly and completely predictable because the outcome is determined by a knowable set of rules. Given the fact that our brains are just[1] a huge set of particles and chemical processes it should then follow that a perfect computer model of someone's brain would…

Then by this logic one could argue, that locking them away for 30 years is not unfair because it is also predetermined by the state of the universe at this given time and there is nothing other people could do but to sentence the killer. Free will or no free will the argument goes both ways.

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#14
post #6

So basically: The world is deterministic, so free will just means to be able to weigh options and delay gratification for a bit longer? That's a sad definition in my book.

That depends on exactly what idea of determinism you have. If you mean something like phenomena can be described by the standard model, that's fine, but if it's something like local realism, that's been busted pretty hard. This might prove more interesting than the linked article, though it was on HN previously: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v409/n6822/full/409791a... Local realism is the idea that objects hav…

The Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is consistent with local realism.

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#15
Focusing on actual processes in the brain may be a more objective discussion than discussing "free will". For example, is the human brain driven by reinforcement learning? is dopamine part of the reward loop? how does curiosity fit in? Are there tipping point effects in neural networks? What about noise, or even quantum effects if you were trying to model and predict an outcome?

Regardless of one's position, that's an objective discussion with questions that can be tested, with useful results that could help develop a general AI.

Contrast that with a discussion about "free will", a suitcase word with numerous polarizing definitions. It's like walking into a minefield of bias and enmity. And frankly just as much strident opinion from "rationalists" as from the religious. And I ask, where is that going? What's the result such discussion is driving towards? Is the discussion really analyzing a real physical process in the brain or is this a values discussion masquerading as logic?

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#16
post #7
post #3

We desperately need a new way of thinking about free will. We really don't. The author of the article has written off hundreds of years of philosophical debate about determinist free will versus indeterminism and decided that his interpretation of free will, which falls firmly in the causal indeterminism camp, is the right way to think about things. Admittedly that's the nice one, because determinism is hard when it…

ISTM that the hundreds of years of debate comes from a unfortunate misunderstanding provoked by many centuries of religious thought: that to be free we need some kind of "soul" apart from physical reality. (The article mentions that) But I don't fully understand why so many smart people, including non-believers, can't see the obvious: that determinism has nothing to do with free will. Free will is just a mechanism of…

Not sure why you are downvoted, for presenting what amounts to the leading theory of free will. ( Compatibilism, the view that free will is compatible with determinism is the most popular theory of free will among philosophers.[1])

[1] http://philpapers.org/archive/BOUWDP

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#17
Once you have a grasp of the fundamental mechanisms of the universe(cause/effect, logic, etc) you quickly see that certain, socially-defined terms are irreconcilable with the facts of reality. Namely they, the three major and thorny ones, are ideas of God or gods, supernatural phenomenon and ideas of free will.

These three ideas just don't fit with the facts. If an entity was powerful enough to create everything, what created IT? If supernatural phenomenon were real, why isn't there solid evidence of its existence, and if it exists on a plane beyond the material then how could it ever affect the material plane we inhabit? Finally, if you accept that the universe follows certain predictable, immutable laws then you must agree that with enough information any future or past state could be predicted or recreated. Humans and their minds live within the constraints of this physical universe, thus any potential future state of mind or behavior could be predicted from the previous state(s) that human was in. All moments arise from the moments before them. There is absolutely no gap there to shimmy in ideas of "free will". I was born at a certain time, place and in a certain community. I had no choice there, but the die was cast and everything I ever become will be constrained by those facts. I will never be able to magically pull myself out of this causal chain.

I would like to add one more thing, to counteract the possible easy pessimism that a realization like this could have on an individual. One day I realized that ghosts weren't real. As a child, this was a burden lifted from my shoulders, as I could rest easier knowing no unpredictable and unfathomable force was going to accost me as I slept. One day I realized that there was no God. I suddenly felt freer than ever, and less self-conscious in solitude. I don't live every day in anxiety about the "lack" of these two delusions. It happened once more with free will. I realized all things belong to a causal chain possibly extending into infinity, and I was just a pattern at the tail end of this chain in time. I suddenly felt more compassionate for every other human, lodged as they are in their station . You and I can't help what we have become, what we came from or what we will be. Even knowing this, I live intentionally, not drowning in a sea of slavish fatalism, but instead with the keen knowledge that I too belong to the causal chain, and that through evolutionary machinations, my mind can suspend disbelief and still feel it is directing the future toward a desired state.

The paradox is difficult to rest in, but it has given me a powerful tool, another paradoxical belief, that I can control my future by knowing that I simply arise from what has past.

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#18
post #17

Once you have a grasp of the fundamental mechanisms of the universe(cause/effect, logic, etc) you quickly see that certain, socially-defined terms are irreconcilable with the facts of reality. Namely they, the three major and thorny ones, are ideas of God or gods, supernatural phenomenon and ideas of free will. These three ideas just don't fit with the facts. If an entity was powerful enough to create everything, wha…

Where would you put the possibility of random events? I do think it's a real possibility that things on sub atomic scale behave randomly or at least stochastic.

If that is true, then no amount of information can predict the future.

Re: Free will is back, and maybe we can measure it

#20
post #3

We desperately need a new way of thinking about free will. We really don't. The author of the article has written off hundreds of years of philosophical debate about determinist free will versus indeterminism and decided that his interpretation of free will, which falls firmly in the causal indeterminism camp, is the right way to think about things. Admittedly that's the nice one, because determinism is hard when it…

What is relationship between free will and ethics/morality?
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