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Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

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Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#42

It's worth noting that you can get similar benefits from Singapore. Singapore doesn't have a cute "E-residency" program, but a foreigner can just pay a local agent and have a corporation opened. Corporate taxes are a clean 17% (lower for small businesses and startups), no dividend taxes, etc. http://www.guidemesingapore.com/incorporation/company/singap... http://www.guidemesingapore.com/taxation/corporate-tax/singa..…

From my (limited, I Am Not A Lawyer, etc.) understanding:

First, it's expensive - you should count a good S$5k SGD/year if you go through an established player (e.g. Hawksford, who you are quoting), maybe a bit less otherwise. This ad infinitum, as you need a local director to keep the company open. And unlike in Hong Kong not so long ago, it has to be a real director - someone who theoretically can open bank accounts and hire people - so you're taking that risk too (the director will, conversely, be taking the risk that you might be a scammer or other criminal whose acts he'll have to answer for in court).

Then you have to put in S$50k in capital in order to be able to apply for a visa (EP) for yourself, should you want permission to work in Singapore (if not, you'll get taxed at home when repatriating profits); this visa will require, today, at least S$4-5k/month in "salary" (which will be taxed).

This also assumes that the Ministry of Manpower doesn't suddenly catch upon this very convenient way of getting yourself what is effectively an investor visa at a fraction of the investor visa cost (which they did two years ago with the EntrePass, which is today utterly useless for most foreign founders due to its requirement to have funding from a short list of approved VCs). Guessing what MoM wants and is going to do seems to be a bit of Kremlinology which HR directors love talking about as their special value add, but it is a bit opaque and the rules change with time, elections and special circumstances (like the famed riots last year, or the Ferrari and taxi incident).

The "plan" should you want to take advantage of Singapore's otherwise fantastic conditions for running a business is to get PR, which takes up to 3 years employed locally (depending on salary - someone on a high salary and from a "desirable" country might get it in 6 months). Singapore is fantastic... for local founders. Or if you're willing to pay.

The days where you could be in business for USD 1,500 and a flight to Hong Kong appear to be, unfortunately, over. I'd love to be proven wrong...

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#43
I am a citizen and a resident of another EU country, and have established a company in Estonia recently. Obtaining e-residency was fast and straightforward. I picked up the card in Tallinn, and opened the company the same day. You will need an address in Estonia, but there are companies that provide that service. I used LeapIn (https://www.leapin.eu) which also provide accounting services (disclosure: my only relationship to them is that I am their client). Their fees are very reasonable and they can help speed up the entire process.

I tried opening a bank account in two banks. One rejected me because (despite having the company) I did not have sufficient ties to Estonia. The other (Swedbank) was very friendly and opened the account the same day. Again, LeapIn smoothened the process for me. I picked up my banking card three days later and everything worked perfectly.

Obtaining a VAT number is more difficult, and I wouldn't have managed without LeapIn's help. You need to convince the tax authorities that there is a legitimate reason why you need it. You need to present evidence (I had a previous company in another EU country) and there are several rounds of dialogue (knowing Estonian, and the local rules is very handy).

Overall, I was amazed at how efficient the process is, and how much effort Estonia is putting into making it even better. This really looks like a major strategic initiative for the country, where they are putting a lot of thought and investment.

Tallinn really deserves a separate post. It is a very beautiful city, with lots of life and things to do, really good atmosphere, good food, and reasonable prices. Very well worth my one-week trip!

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now yes, to open a bank account in Estonia you need to visit a local bank physically (although then it is very easy). Part of the money laundering regulations common in Estonia. Luckily this law will change in spring.

Not myself, but a very good friend tried that. He submitted all the paperwork electronically and went to Estonia for a week to open a bank account. From the 3 banks that are supporting E-residency they all denied to open the account. One of the managers he talked with explained that the bank do not open accounts without physical address in Estonia. Probably that will change, but that's experience from end of Septembe…

So why didn't he just get an address in Estonia? There are a number of virtual mailbox companies in Tallinn and elsewhere.

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#45
post #42

It's worth noting that you can get similar benefits from Singapore. Singapore doesn't have a cute "E-residency" program, but a foreigner can just pay a local agent and have a corporation opened. Corporate taxes are a clean 17% (lower for small businesses and startups), no dividend taxes, etc. http://www.guidemesingapore.com/incorporation/company/singap... http://www.guidemesingapore.com/taxation/corporate-tax/singa..…

From my (limited, I Am Not A Lawyer, etc.) understanding: First, it's expensive - you should count a good S$5k SGD/year if you go through an established player (e.g. Hawksford, who you are quoting), maybe a bit less otherwise. This ad infinitum, as you need a local director to keep the company open. And unlike in Hong Kong not so long ago, it has to be a real director - someone who theoretically can open bank account…

I was suggesting incorporation in Singapore as a possible alternative to Estonia. The goal is to have a good legal home for a business which is not location dependent, not to actually live there.

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#46
post #4

Can anyone provide any insight on why E-Residency would be good for businesses? How about startups in particular?

Also how about sole proprietors contractors/consultants based in another EU country?

If you do not reside in Estonia then, when you extract money, you get to keep 80%, minus the dividend tax of your country of residence.

Despite there being double-taxation treaties with several countries, Estonia taxes the company paying dividends, and not the individual receiving them, so you may not be in a double-taxation situation. But I am not a lawyer or an accountant; it is better to consult with one.

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#47
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe corporations in the U.S. pay taxes on dividends they disburse. Generally the principle in the U.S. is that whenever you receive money you get taxed. There are lots of ways to reeive money hence lots of different taxes. It seems reasonable. If one form of income were not taxed then things would end up getting skewed in that direction.

>I don't believe corporations in the U.S. pay taxes on dividends they disburse. Generally the principle in the U.S. is that whenever you receive money you get taxed. This is not true. While many countries do not do this, dividend payments are not tax deductible in the US. In fact, they are double-taxed (at both the corporate and individual level) which is one of the reasons/arguments for individual taxes on dividends…

I believe the principle is that whenever you receive money you get taxed. There are some exceptions and money is taxed at different rates depending on the way you receive it. But for the most part the idea is that whenever you directly receive money there are tax implications. This seems reasonable to me.

In the case of corporations and dividends to shareholders you are correct. I don't know of any other such examples.

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe corporations in the U.S. pay taxes on dividends they disburse. Generally the principle in the U.S. is that whenever you receive money you get taxed. There are lots of ways to reeive money hence lots of different taxes. It seems reasonable. If one form of income were not taxed then things would end up getting skewed in that direction.

No, shareholders pay taxes on dividends. It's a more or less meaningless distinction - as a shareholder your business profits are taxed on the way in and again on the way out. If one form of income were not taxed then things would end up getting skewed in that direction. This is wrong. The problem is that different paths of money get taxed in different ways. If you buy stock, then sell it back during a stock buyback,…

With regard to shareholders and corporate and dividend taxes you are correct. My statements on this were wrong.

The general principle I stated is the one employed in the U.S. Generally, when one receives money there are tax implications. There are some exceptions to this principle but this is the general idea. The different ways of receiving money have different tax rates and this causes a skewing of how "income" is begotten in the U.S. by the very wealthy. They prefer getting money via capital gains since the tax is less that route.

I don't think one can reasonably argue that not taxing one form of income would lead to people preferring to get income via that tax free route. The objection I had to your original post is that the U.S. tax principle is bad. It is reasonable to tax all income streams. I don't know the optimal for each stream but given that taxes in the U.S. are low relative to the past 70 years suggests the rates aren't burdensome.

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#49
post #11

Has anyone applied to this? How much is the cost of being an Estonian e-citizen? When i was there i understood there was some cost, roughly < 100 euros. Is every step of the procedure online? or some paperwork has to be done in Estonia (this is was my understanding of last time)

I did.

The online application (€50) was very easy to fill out, and I received status updates via email. My e-Residency was granted 51 days after submission, and the card was ready to be picked up 8 days later.

I picked up my card at the Estonian consulate in NYC over the summer. You just have to bring ID, and they will fingerprint you while you're there.

I think it was the most pleasant interaction I've ever had with a government.

Re: Estonia's E-Residency Program Is Growing Faster Than Predicted

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, shareholders pay taxes on dividends. It's a more or less meaningless distinction - as a shareholder your business profits are taxed on the way in and again on the way out. If one form of income were not taxed then things would end up getting skewed in that direction. This is wrong. The problem is that different paths of money get taxed in different ways. If you buy stock, then sell it back during a stock buyback,…

With regard to shareholders and corporate and dividend taxes you are correct. My statements on this were wrong. The general principle I stated is the one employed in the U.S. Generally, when one receives money there are tax implications. There are some exceptions to this principle but this is the general idea. The different ways of receiving money have different tax rates and this causes a skewing of how "income" is…

Yeah, I wasn't disputing that this is how the US does it. I was disputing that absent this, things would be skewed.

The issue is not taxing personal income, the issue is taxing corporations. A nearly ideal situation would be to eliminate all corporate taxes and tax individuals at a fixed rate when corporate wealth is transferred to shareholders. The only better situation would be eliminating all income taxes and replacing them with consumption taxes.

Unfortunately, this is a political non-starter - it would eliminate the ability of politicians to pretend they aren't indirectly taxing people when corporate taxes are raised.

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