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The Hostile Email Landscape

liminality.xyz

51–60 of 251 posts

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#51
Many of the issues we're running into with online systems, particularly those relating to quality and reputation (spam, collaborative filtering or content rating as on HN or Reddit, etc.) have strong analogs in real-world social spaces. And there were real-world mechanisms for dealing with these.

For a new businessman or professional setting out in the world, pre-Internet, "establishing your name" was a requirement. These days the concept's often referred to as "creating a personal brand", but the reality was pretty straightforward: how does an unknown quantity become a known quantity?

A common method was the professional or social introduction. This is still practiced, where a third-party _matchmaker_ will introduce two parties. The matchmaker usually knows both, and can vouch for the newcomer and smooth the path for introductions with the established party. Essentially, the matchmaker stakes _their_ reputation by speaking for another.

Lawrence Lessig describes a similar concept in his book Code and Other Laws of Cypberspace, in a passage describing a physical messaging system, the Yale Wall. This was a board onto which messages could be posted, with the proviso that that they be signed. Unsigned messages would be posted from time to time, effectively presenting an anonymous viewpoint. Removal wasn't instantaneous or automatic, but rather, at some point prior to garbage collection, another individual could review the piece, and, if they felt it warranted posting, sign for it. They weren't registering themselves as author, but as vouching for the merits of the viewpoint -- not necessarily agreement.

A messaging system in which a new peer might be able to indicate that, hey, peers X, Y, and Z, with established reputations can vouch for me, and for which those peers could confirm their endorsement, might address the "how to build reputation" issues of new mailservers.

I've also found that even large mail systems will frequently have some procedure for getting at least provisionally vetted, effectively a workfactor cost to coming online. Though the process absolutely could be improved.

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#53
post #50
post #7

The problem is not so much the attitude of the big guys. It is that smtp is fundamentally broken. we need a better mail protocol that ensures: 1. Traffic always encrypted and content always signed 2. Guarantee that the sender is who it claims he is 3. Decorrelating the email from the domain, a lot of users are prisoners of their current provider just because the address they gave everyone ends with the provider's dom…

We had a better system back in the day: X.400.

Howso?

The X protocols have typically struck me as grossly overdesigned and complicated.

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#54
post #16

I've run into similar issues with a similar setup. It's frustrating. You can convince gmail user A to whitelist your messages, and so they'll get through to user A, but gmail user B probably still won't see messages from you unless you tell him to dig them out of the spam trap. And your messages to A might still be classified as spam if they have attachments or hyperlinks in them. (Even if you've been corresponding w…

I setup my own email server about 2 years ago and gmail accepted our emails without issues. But outlook/hotmail blocked us for a long time until the second time I submitted an unblock application.

Maybe Google is stricter now. I often get captchas when using google.com now.

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#55

Did you try to acquire reputation by having real people with accounts in "known" services send emails to your server?

If this sort of shit was required to get a basic www-server up and running, do you think anyone would have cared about the internet at all?

The internet was supposed to be for everyone and anyone. Current internet email is terribly flawed. There's just no way around it and the current status cannot be defended.

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#56
This largely true and hugely disappointing. Our startup (https://portal.cloud) is making it possible for non-hackers to self-host their own email servers. It works very well for the most part, but we have had to explain to a number of them why their email sometimes gets bounced by the big proprietary cloud services.

All of our users have their own domain names, IP addresses, SPF records, and correctly configured (and up to date) Postfix SMTP servers. There is absolutely no excuse for not always delivering their email, and yet this is what the big companies do.

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#57
post #16

I've run into similar issues with a similar setup. It's frustrating. You can convince gmail user A to whitelist your messages, and so they'll get through to user A, but gmail user B probably still won't see messages from you unless you tell him to dig them out of the spam trap. And your messages to A might still be classified as spam if they have attachments or hyperlinks in them. (Even if you've been corresponding w…

The email deliverability issues we have had as a legitimate business are insane. Moving to an ESP years ago has helped, but it's far from perfect. I've wondered how a small business without the tech resources could manage this. For instance, several months back some of our account holders suddenly stopped receiving important account info as well as newsletters from us. Tracked it down to a third party filtering servi…

In fairness, I've worked with a number of generally legitimate shops who've had exceptionally poor email hygiene.

Sending messages in the millions to domains which have been inactive and unregistered for over a decade, for example, suggests a certain lack of diligence in bounce-tracking or list-cleaning.

The emails had been initially legitimately added, but clients and/or email providers had long since gone out of business. Re-validating email every so often isn't a bad idea. Especially if you're relying on it for other purposes (e.g., account recovery).

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#58
This is indeed worrying. I've been running my own E-mail servers for the last 20 years or so and even though my problems weren't as severe, I did run into a few cases where the "big ones" were at least delaying my E-mail.

But this kind of problem invariably arises when we go from a fragmented Internet with lots of small hosts/providers to an Internet of several walled gardens, run by the big guys.

The real answer is to offer a reasonable self-hosting competitor to GMail.

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#59
post #16

I've run into similar issues with a similar setup. It's frustrating. You can convince gmail user A to whitelist your messages, and so they'll get through to user A, but gmail user B probably still won't see messages from you unless you tell him to dig them out of the spam trap. And your messages to A might still be classified as spam if they have attachments or hyperlinks in them. (Even if you've been corresponding w…

http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html

Internet Mail 2000 IM2000 is a project to design a new Internet mail infrastructure around the following concept: Mail storage is the sender's responsibility.

Re: The Hostile Email Landscape

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The email deliverability issues we have had as a legitimate business are insane. Moving to an ESP years ago has helped, but it's far from perfect. I've wondered how a small business without the tech resources could manage this. For instance, several months back some of our account holders suddenly stopped receiving important account info as well as newsletters from us. Tracked it down to a third party filtering servi…

> Consulted counsel and the next step was to send a cease and desist, followed by an injunction on the grounds of tortious interference. Then, just as suddenly, our emails started going through again. Dangerous path to go down; because so many spammers throw around legal threats too, doing so can get you on a different set of blacklists.

At that point, you're boxed in. You're already on a list. Begging and hoping when your revenue and relationships are under attack is not an option.

Filing for injunctive relief isn't a threat. It's legal action. Unlike spammers, we could easily demonstrate our legitimacy and best practices, etc. They would be compelled to remove us and not retaliate if they are a legit business and care about the integrity of their service for their own reputation and customers.

If, however, that does not describe them, then the outcome would seem to be bleak in any case.

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