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The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#71

Post by eevilspock »

Retra wrote: post #69
eevilspock wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that too many libertarians take the precept that one's body is sacrosanct and extrapolate it to things beyond the body. I agree that one's body belongs to oneself and no one else, that it must not be violated by any one or any group, even in the name of a greater good. And I can agree that the fruits of one's labor cannot also be coerced or taken away, as long as "fruits of one's labor" is very strictl…

"I agree that one's body belongs to oneself and no one else, that it must not be violated by any one or any group, even in the name of a greater good." Your personal autonomy is contingent upon your intent to use that autonomy to promote the common good. Your society, in the name of the greater good, can (and will) take your body from you if you don't use it to employ a minimum amount of consideration for others. And…

I'm a socialist, but I could never agree with what you just said.

You've basically said that society can, for example, force you to work on a farm if others are starving, even if you yourself are content to starve.

That's ridiculous.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#73

Post by ddingus »

hga wrote: post #66
ddingus wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed we do. What is worth what? That's the question put before us. That we have it, and a meaningful, plausible, non violent answer is just. Not easy, mind you. And the ones who benefit are powerful and seek to advance that power too. We let them get there. We are going to have to value a remedy enough to check that, or we get what we get. Edit: And to put a bit sharper point on that, look at how people regard poli…

The most active voters are elderly people, who are thinking of a future they are not likely to see. How fucked up is that? Well, seeing as how I turn 55 in less than 2 months, I'm inclined to say "probably less fucked up that you think" ^_^. Wisdom is often comes with age, and I think I've seen enough and learned enough that I can make much better decisions than I could when I was under 30. (I grant that I'm not the…

I didn't really respond as I would have liked to this comment.

It's not anything about older people among us lacking in some way. What I meant with, "how fucked up is that?" has more to do with our crappy political dialog.

Truth is, younger people should be engaged more than they are and they should be hearing what older people have seen and learned too. That experience is a net benefit to everyone when it's shared and there is a dialog about it all.

I've lived my life doing this, nearly always having mentors and trusted others older than me to consult with. It's a huge benefit. All started with literally, "the old farmer up the road" when I was a kid. That guy would just tell me real stuff that really mattered. Got more out of helping him out for the day than I probably even know.

And I would just show up too. "Need some help?" and off we would go. Doing whatever, and once we got comfortable, task at hand moving along nicely, I could just ask stuff. Truth is, I know he loved that, and would tell me all kinds of things, sometimes challenging me in various ways too. Always wanted to know outcomes as well. When I saw some success or other, I would share it back and see that grin...

The political process itself is solid. I've no real complaints, other than some abuses we can and should be more concerned about.

But the dialog is horrible.

That's what I was getting at, and I just didn't put the effort into it that I should have.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#74

Post by [deleted] »

vetinari wrote: post #18
aianus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Mexicans would be working and paying rent or buying your property from you, not squatting in your bedroom for free.

They would be living in my country, demand voting rights, then demand things that the original residents would never vote for, but will have to pay for anyway. Why should I agree to change (from my POV: destroy) the society where I live? Btw: I'm not US citizen. I'm European. You'll be hard pressed to find many people in Europe in current situation, who would agree with disbanding the borders.

[deleted]

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#75

Post by Retra »

eevilspock wrote: post #71
Retra wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I agree that one's body belongs to oneself and no one else, that it must not be violated by any one or any group, even in the name of a greater good." Your personal autonomy is contingent upon your intent to use that autonomy to promote the common good. Your society, in the name of the greater good, can (and will) take your body from you if you don't use it to employ a minimum amount of consideration for others. And…

I'm a socialist, but I could never agree with what you just said. You've basically said that society can, for example, force you to work on a farm if others are starving, even if you yourself are content to starve. That's ridiculous.

I've basically described the criminal justice system in every country on the planet.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#76

Post by vetinari »

dang wrote: post #72
vetinari wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked out of the window lately? Or is it too high from your ivory tower?

No personal attacks on Hacker News, please.

Sorry, it was not intended to be personal attack.

Yes, the point, that someone may be minority in his opinion can be conveyed in a different way.

(http://www.gallup.com/poll/186209/europeans-negative-toward-...)

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#77

Post by myguidingstar »

addicted44 wrote: post #26

Even if you don't get open borders, the fact that we have all these treaties which force free flow of capital across but do nothing to allow easier flow of labor across borders is a huge problem. It allows nations with crappy social and political systems to undermine labor welfare and protection policies in better political systems without facing repercussions for it. Unsurprisingly, the asymmetric flows of capital a…

> It allows nations with crappy social and political systems to undermine labor welfare and protection policies in better political systems without facing repercussions for it. what about the education and raising cost the country of arrival doesn't have to pay because the country of origin did? what about the laymen who undermine social security b/c they don't have competition from immigrants? (I'm just trying to use the same logic to show your argument is incomplete. Researches on free money experiments are showing otherwise)
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