Live data from Hacker News

Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

fastcoexist.com

41–50 of 62 posts

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#41
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

biology is not my forte but- i imagine "dark data" (with context) is always more valuable than no data.

Last time your build failed because you made a typo, did you package it up and release that version anyway?

Except in this case your build system is configured in such a way that a failed build triggers bundling your /usr/bin as a release. The result is mostly the same everywhere, with slight differences per programmer, and is utterly worthless for anyone.

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#42
post #12

Could someone please offer a TLDR; The article seems very clickbait and full of teases.

From the article: "In the case of the spinal cord injury data, Ayasdi’s TDA-driven approach mostly confirmed what researchers already knew: The drugs didn’t work." How this "Ayasdi" company's analysis probably works (based on "Topology based data analysis identifies a subgroup of breast cancers with a unique mutational profile and excellent survival" and the original "Mapper" paper "Topological Methods for the Analys…

One quick edit to this description : We (Ayasdi) have generalized the notion of Reeb Graph's - such that it is no longer limited to single scalar functions. While in the single scalar function the mapper algorithm is an (extremely efficient) approximation to the Reeb Graph, in the multiple scalar function case, it has no direct theoretical analogue (although the notion of Reeb Spaces is similar).

We are generally not trying to lay claim to the phrase "Topological Data Analysis" and not going around suing people for using it. In fact we still support research in academia and actively publish in the field. TDA is the basis of what we do so it is the most efficient way of describing it.

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#43

Here is the actual paper: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151014/ncomms9581/full/nco... Coming from medicine I think the title of "medical breakthrough" is too generous. It's a great proof of concept but all this says is that in rats, high Bp in thoracic spinal cord injuries was associated with worse outcomes. Id like to see a follow up on human data from perioperative Bp recordings next. If it still holds true, th…

The Nature paper uses the phrase "data-driven hypothesis generation," which sounds pretty accurate and consistent with what you're saying.

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#44
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

biology is not my forte but- i imagine "dark data" (with context) is always more valuable than no data.

Wrong data is much much worse that no data, since it may lead you down the wrong path. Think what the false news of a Russian nuclear strike in US soil would have done during the Cold War.

this is why i said, "with context".

you'd have to be a little stupid to head down the wrong path after someone explained clearly to you why it is in fact wrong.

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

biology is not my forte but- i imagine "dark data" (with context) is always more valuable than no data.

That's simply not true. One of the most, if not the most, common ways to fail an experiment is through contamination and there are at least a dozen different types of bacteria in the average lab that are brutally efficient at outcompeting whatever is in your sample and probably thousands more that are problematic at best. Once your sample is contaminated it is useless because the number of variables out of your contr…

That failure should still be documented somewhere.

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#46

The substance of the article is quite interesting, but the headline and premise--that it was a computer program and not humans who found the result--is ridiculous. The computer program did not collate and index the raw data and notes. The computer program did not choose the relevant inputs from the sum of all knowledge. And most importantly, the computer program did not write itself. Software is a tool that humans cr…

Whether or not the program wrote itself is the least relevant aspect of its ingenuity.

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

biology is not my forte but- i imagine "dark data" (with context) is always more valuable than no data.

That's simply not true. One of the most, if not the most, common ways to fail an experiment is through contamination and there are at least a dozen different types of bacteria in the average lab that are brutally efficient at outcompeting whatever is in your sample and probably thousands more that are problematic at best. Once your sample is contaminated it is useless because the number of variables out of your contr…

gotchya. i'm understanding the argument now. which was probably my gross misuse of the word "always".

i'm seeing there are many more instances than i expected where failures are so systematic or negligible they are not worth sharing.

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#48

I'm a frontend developer at Ayasdi and we're hiring!!! http://www.ayasdi.com/company/careers/ Come be a part of future breakthroughs.

I can't see your opportunities because the iframe embedded is having too many redirects. Just a heads up. :/

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#49

The substance of the article is quite interesting, but the headline and premise--that it was a computer program and not humans who found the result--is ridiculous. The computer program did not collate and index the raw data and notes. The computer program did not choose the relevant inputs from the sum of all knowledge. And most importantly, the computer program did not write itself. Software is a tool that humans cr…

I agree that this wasn't done by the computer (did computers uncover the Higgs Boson?) but I also do not believe humans can take most of the credit: this was the result of a Man Machine System team up—trying to disentangle credit assignment is not a worthwhile activity. Roughly and from a quick reading of a paper thickly frosted with jargon I am unfamiliar with, the method works by creating networks—which highlight key relationships—for visualization by searching for stable clusters in a reduced dimensionality space of the variables.

Humans are there to explore the visualizations, interpret the network structures and understand the clusters and variables. The machines are intelligent too; they do the heavy work of comparing large numbers of points in a high dimensional space, factorization and searching for a way to express the data in a manner that makes it easier to uncover promising research directions and hypotheses.

Scanning this, it seems the most valuable contribution are their network visualization and exploratory tools. I think they should be proud of those and see no need to stretch so mightily to connect this to Stronger AI. As Vinge notes, "I am suggesting that we recognize that in network and interface research there is something as profound (and potential wild) as Artificial Intelligence."

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151014/ncomms9581/full/nco...

Re: Medical Breakthrough in Spinal Cord Injuries Was Made by a Computer Program

#50

Here is the actual paper: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151014/ncomms9581/full/nco... Coming from medicine I think the title of "medical breakthrough" is too generous. It's a great proof of concept but all this says is that in rats, high Bp in thoracic spinal cord injuries was associated with worse outcomes. Id like to see a follow up on human data from perioperative Bp recordings next. If it still holds true, th…

Preliminary evidence has been found in humans, looking at the other end of the spectrum with hypotension.

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/neu.2014.3778

We are now looking at the hypertension relationship in humans, as well as mechanistic studies in rats.

Post reply on HN