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The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

theatlantic.com

61–70 of 77 posts

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#61
I'm opposed to this on very basic grounds: freedom of expression, and the derived artifact of that, freedom of and from religion.

The economic case is somewhat compelling, but I'll set it aside for now, as that is an open and running political dialog playing out with trade agreements, treaties, etc...

Religion, in the US, is entirely optional. We don't have the concept of a "higher authority" codified in the law. We also permit nearly all expression, and in particular, that expression hostile to powerful interests and the government itself.

I often see and hear about things I find completely unacceptable in nations that have not gone there. Religious law, of various kinds, can justify nearly anything. Secular law is similar, but the debate can be meaningful and at least composed of things we can put into a courtroom and reason about.

"God says..." is irrational. We have absolutely nothing on record at all. Thomas Paine details this, and derives the basis for natural rights for us as peer beings in the world, as well as the concept of self-governance in "Rights of Man", and "Age of Reason" --The latter, saw him jailed for a number of years due to how angry Catholics got over that work.

On a basic level, we are all just beings here. If one takes that concept of fundamental equality, and mutual ignorance (no higher authority, no real definitive record or understanding of our origins), a lot of the social progress we've seen are obvious conclusions.

These things are very important to me. I want that basic realization and consideration just as much as I understand my peers here want it, and arguably we all need it too.

Borders do actually compartmentalize the world in ways that compare and contrast these ideas with other, older ideas, and it's very important that the increasingly connected people of the world see all of that play out, so that we may continue to see the social and human benefits expand.

Economics is another discussion, and it has just as much potential to do harm, oppress, etc... as the social issues do, but we are on the upside of social issues, and trading that for improved economics isn't something I feel good about.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#62
post #60
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it still does the really important things well which is a fair vote. I wouldn't call any political system which allows Citizens United or any form of lobbying fair. It overshadows and taints the entire electoral and representative processes.

That is unfair. However, we can still remedy that through the vote. Motivating people to actually do that is a political problem. Our process is just in this way. Lazy / uninformed people getting the product of those behaviors is arguably just, given the process does provide meaningful remedies. It's an interesting dynamic. I do see it as somewhat self-correcting. When it gets ugly enough, the process does allow for…

"However, we can still remedy that through the vote"

Only indirectly, you're talking about striking "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." from the end of the First Amendment, and for Citizens United, heavily abridging the freedom of speech and the press.

To do that, you've got to go thorough the amendment process, or a constitutional convention, both of which require buy in from 3/4ths of the governments of the states. To which we elect representatives and governors, but....

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#63
post #62
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unfair. However, we can still remedy that through the vote. Motivating people to actually do that is a political problem. Our process is just in this way. Lazy / uninformed people getting the product of those behaviors is arguably just, given the process does provide meaningful remedies. It's an interesting dynamic. I do see it as somewhat self-correcting. When it gets ugly enough, the process does allow for…

" However, we can still remedy that through the vote " Only indirectly, you're talking about striking " to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. " from the end of the First Amendment, and for Citizens United , heavily abridging the freedom of speech and the press. To do that, you've got to go thorough the amendment process, or a constitutional convention, both of which require buy in from 3/4ths of the…

Indeed we do.

What is worth what?

That's the question put before us. That we have it, and a meaningful, plausible, non violent answer is just. Not easy, mind you. And the ones who benefit are powerful and seek to advance that power too.

We let them get there. We are going to have to value a remedy enough to check that, or we get what we get.

Edit: And to put a bit sharper point on that, look at how people regard politics. Most of us, and this is my anecdotal experience talking, just don't have time for it.

Why not?

Scenarios like this are direct artifact of a disinterested populace.

If more of us put just a few percent of our free time into basic political action, we could very quickly remedy many things.

What is worth what? Seems that entertainment, play, hobbies, etc... are worth more than a better state of governance is. Even more intriguing is the impact people under 30 can actually have! Not only do they have the time, but they stand to benefit in their lives the most! They quite simply will be living in improved times.

The most active voters are elderly people, who are thinking of a future they are not likely to see.

How fucked up is that?

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#64
post #7

There is a case for open borders, in a perfect world. On the other hand, the destination country does not get any equity in the source country, as deferment. Immigrants take up resources (housing, educational, etc.) and send money out (remittances). Let's say you're running a great country with a great economy, Singapore. And, suddenly in a gesture of humanity, you open borders, and you have 5 million people stream i…

>> "Let's say you're running a great country with a great economy, Singapore. And, suddenly in a gesture of humanity, you open borders, and you have 5 million people stream in, maybe ten. How good is Singapore going to be as a destination with that kind of migratory assault on resources, infrastructure, culture, economy etc?" Well some of the concerns you are raising here are offset by simple economics. As more peopl…

And now you've got a bunch of other problems, many of them being inflicted on your citizens.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#65

I have been arguing this for years - in a 10% tongue-in-cheek kind of way - and it's strange to see it written down in an article. The stock response tends to be that in an ideal world it would be great, but it's not practical. Of course, perfectly decent, well-meaning and good-hearted white people sat around dinner tables during apartheid and slavery and said exactly the same thing. History has proven them wrong, an…

Slavery and open borders are completely different things, so your jab at "well-meaning and good-hearted white people" is invalid.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#66
post #63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" However, we can still remedy that through the vote " Only indirectly, you're talking about striking " to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. " from the end of the First Amendment, and for Citizens United , heavily abridging the freedom of speech and the press. To do that, you've got to go thorough the amendment process, or a constitutional convention, both of which require buy in from 3/4ths of the…

Indeed we do. What is worth what? That's the question put before us. That we have it, and a meaningful, plausible, non violent answer is just. Not easy, mind you. And the ones who benefit are powerful and seek to advance that power too. We let them get there. We are going to have to value a remedy enough to check that, or we get what we get. Edit: And to put a bit sharper point on that, look at how people regard poli…

The most active voters are elderly people, who are thinking of a future they are not likely to see.

How fucked up is that?

Well, seeing as how I turn 55 in less than 2 months, I'm inclined to say "probably less fucked up that you think" ^_^.

Wisdom is often comes with age, and I think I've seen enough and learned enough that I can make much better decisions than I could when I was under 30.

(I grant that I'm not the normal case, was politically aware by Nixon's 2nd election in 1972 (knew it was important he win in 1968, but not really why). And I study history, a lot, this comment is being made as a break from reading yet another book about the Manhattan Project.)

As for the disinterested populace, I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. The American "leave me alone" and "live and let live" attitudes have a lot to say for them. Especially since they rapidly adjust when things get really bad....

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#67

>Freedom of movement is a basic human right. I wish people would stop making up fake rights. Your freedom to move stops at someone else's property.

So you believe property is a basic human right.

The problem is that too many libertarians take the precept that one's body is sacrosanct and extrapolate it to things beyond the body. I agree that one's body belongs to oneself and no one else, that it must not be violated by any one or any group, even in the name of a greater good. And I can agree that the fruits of one's labor cannot also be coerced or taken away, as long as "fruits of one's labor" is very strictly and narrowly defined. I agree that everyone has the "right" to be a selfish jerk.

But this does not extend much beyond your body. Certainly not to land.

Land is the fruit of no one's labor. Rather, we are the fruits of it.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#68
post #66
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed we do. What is worth what? That's the question put before us. That we have it, and a meaningful, plausible, non violent answer is just. Not easy, mind you. And the ones who benefit are powerful and seek to advance that power too. We let them get there. We are going to have to value a remedy enough to check that, or we get what we get. Edit: And to put a bit sharper point on that, look at how people regard poli…

The most active voters are elderly people, who are thinking of a future they are not likely to see. How fucked up is that? Well, seeing as how I turn 55 in less than 2 months, I'm inclined to say "probably less fucked up that you think" ^_^. Wisdom is often comes with age, and I think I've seen enough and learned enough that I can make much better decisions than I could when I was under 30. (I grant that I'm not the…

I'm nearing that range too.

It's not that I think older people are ill informed. They too have time, and they have experience.

Your last point rings true. It's why I say the process is just. People find the difficulty of change for something like Citizens United difficult. That's as intended.

If it's really bad, then more of us will care, and it will get changed.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you believe property is a basic human right.

The problem is that too many libertarians take the precept that one's body is sacrosanct and extrapolate it to things beyond the body. I agree that one's body belongs to oneself and no one else, that it must not be violated by any one or any group, even in the name of a greater good. And I can agree that the fruits of one's labor cannot also be coerced or taken away, as long as "fruits of one's labor" is very strictl…

"I agree that one's body belongs to oneself and no one else, that it must not be violated by any one or any group, even in the name of a greater good."

Your personal autonomy is contingent upon your intent to use that autonomy to promote the common good.

Your society, in the name of the greater good, can (and will) take your body from you if you don't use it to employ a minimum amount of consideration for others. And they have every right to.

There are no 'innate' rights. They all require justification, even when that justification is both vague and obvious in our current culture.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#70

>Freedom of movement is a basic human right. I wish people would stop making up fake rights. Your freedom to move stops at someone else's property.

Property ownership is pretty much just an agreement among people, it's not a natural right. In fact, you can discover the real owner of your property if you stop paying property taxes, or when a local government decides they want a road there.

I agree. I didn't say property ownership was a natural right. I think free movement is also pretty much an agreement between people.
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