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The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#11

Post by mahyarm »

Strong borders came with the welfare state to avoid a tragedy of the commons.

Remove various fundamental benefits such as public school, medical care, welfare, transit, subsidized X and the millions of other benefits created in the past 120 years and open borders are not as big of a deal anymore. You just need to hop on a boat and arrive at ellis island, like the ancestors of many americans today.

There are also parallels with city zoning laws. Go buy a house and find out how many restrictions and regulations there are on the parcel of land that you have purchased. And also see how much resistance you will get from the local politically active populace if you dare try to change things. Such as creating density. NIMBYism almost seems like a instinctual human reflex.

In other places where there isn't a welfare state and so on, it's usually straight up racism and ethnic nationalism.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#12

Post by duncanawoods »

sparkzilla wrote: post #2

>Freedom of movement is a basic human right. I wish people would stop making up fake rights. Your freedom to move stops at someone else's property.

Well there are no "real" rights. The pragmatic understanding is that rights are labels that groups agree to use to indicate that something is "very important, the exceptions must be spectacularly well justified". You don't have to agree with the label.

For your private property example, consider UK freedom to roam and statutory right of access laws. It is sometimes called "right to roam". UN and EU have freedom of movement rights, but they do not grant crossing borders other than your own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#15

Post by joeclark77 »

Democracy is when the people can replace the government if they don't like the way it governs. What we're seeing in Europe and the US these days is that government is trying to replace the people because it doesn't like the way they vote. The unfettered-immigration and amnesty-for-illegals movements on both continents are direct attacks on democracy by governments that think they can get more money or power with a different set of voters. I don't know if anything quite like this has happened before... did the Greeks even have a word for it?

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#16

Post by aianus »

vetinari wrote: post #9
Dylan16807 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's a completely unrelated concept.

How's that? It's related, just different in scope.

Because the Mexicans would be working and paying rent or buying your property from you, not squatting in your bedroom for free.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#17

Post by mseebach »

sparkzilla wrote: post #2

>Freedom of movement is a basic human right. I wish people would stop making up fake rights. Your freedom to move stops at someone else's property.

But if I invite you onto my property, your freedom of movement includes your right to accept my invitation. Which you can't do if there's a noncooperative national border between you and my property.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#18

Post by vetinari »

aianus wrote: post #16
vetinari wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's that? It's related, just different in scope.

Because the Mexicans would be working and paying rent or buying your property from you, not squatting in your bedroom for free.

They would be living in my country, demand voting rights, then demand things that the original residents would never vote for, but will have to pay for anyway.

Why should I agree to change (from my POV: destroy) the society where I live?

Btw: I'm not US citizen. I'm European. You'll be hard pressed to find many people in Europe in current situation, who would agree with disbanding the borders.

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#19

Post by lwhalen »

joeclark77 wrote: post #15

Democracy is when the people can replace the government if they don't like the way it governs. What we're seeing in Europe and the US these days is that government is trying to replace the people because it doesn't like the way they vote. The unfettered-immigration and amnesty-for-illegals movements on both continents are direct attacks on democracy by governments that think they can get more money or power with a di…

Gerrymandering, but on a grander scale?

Re: The Case for Getting Rid of Borders Completely

#20

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

mc32 wrote: post #7

There is a case for open borders, in a perfect world. On the other hand, the destination country does not get any equity in the source country, as deferment. Immigrants take up resources (housing, educational, etc.) and send money out (remittances). Let's say you're running a great country with a great economy, Singapore. And, suddenly in a gesture of humanity, you open borders, and you have 5 million people stream i…

>> "Let's say you're running a great country with a great economy, Singapore. And, suddenly in a gesture of humanity, you open borders, and you have 5 million people stream in, maybe ten. How good is Singapore going to be as a destination with that kind of migratory assault on resources, infrastructure, culture, economy etc?"

Well some of the concerns you are raising here are offset by simple economics. As more people arrive, due to fixed supply of land and limited ability to import resources, prices of everything will gradually increase, up to a point where the next potential immigrant would no longer be interested in immigrating.

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