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Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

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Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#21

Post by jacquesm »

eevilspock wrote: post #10
oneJob wrote: post #3

So,,, at what point does this become accepted (as opposed to tolerated) business practice? Or, more optimistic, no longer tolerated. At one point it was ok to say, "This is all new and still being worked out." But, it is no longer new. It is very worked out. Entire sectors of the economy (and legal system) are devoted to knowing more about consumers then they sometimes know about themselves. The entire industry is be…

"If a business model wouldn’t work if users had to opt in, it deserves to fail." (last line of the article) Since the invisible hand of the free internet appears to be arthritic, a more visible hand (fist?) is necessary. And we have it in the way of request blockers such as uBlock Origin, wich can compleltely block Facebook's and Google's tracking in their tracks. As more and more people turn to subversive solutions…

How much traffic now originates from VPNs?

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#22

Post by mark_l_watson »

Is this a problem? Who stays logged into Facebook?

My browser does an auto fill for my user name and password, I login for 10 minutes to see postings from my brother, grandson, neices, etc. and then logoff.

Never occurred to me to stay logged into FB. In the same way, I like to use a separate web browser for just using Google and twitter. Small easy steps for maintaining a modicum of privacy.

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#23

Post by joosters »

r0naa wrote: post #4

I do have a Facebook account, primarily because I am studying abroad and I need to keep in touch with my family and close friends and Facebook is, thus far, the best way to share what is going on in my life. It kind of allow me to "broadcast" my life events. Now, I really dislike what I just read. I wonder if tech companies have a moral obligation to disclose to the user what are the terms of the contracts. While ToS…

It's not just that privacy policies / ToS are using complex legal language. The real problem is that they are so broad.

For example, just about every privacy policy states that information collected can be used to improve the company's products & services, or to help develop new ones. That effectively gives the company free reign to do whatever they like with your data. Who knows that products they may decide to offer?

A company could release a new product tomorrow that sells your individual browsing data to the highest bidder, and that would be covered by this clause. Also remember that almost all policies state that they can be updated without notice too. Do No Evil today, Evil tomorrow...

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#24

Post by maxerickson »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #22

Is this a problem? Who stays logged into Facebook? My browser does an auto fill for my user name and password, I login for 10 minutes to see postings from my brother, grandson, neices, etc. and then logoff. Never occurred to me to stay logged into FB. In the same way, I like to use a separate web browser for just using Google and twitter. Small easy steps for maintaining a modicum of privacy.

It's a huge UI problem, but browsers should probably default to the behavior that you are leaning over to one side and hopping on one foot to get. Then you need a UI for selectively turning on sharing of information between sites.

The advanced mode in uBlock is a big step forward for users that want to bother with it, but I'm not sure it is even solvable for users that don't want to bother.

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#25

Post by kaybe »

sbov wrote: post #13
stanleydrew wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technical details are simple. When you are "logged in" to Facebook, your browser stores a unique token in a cookie that can identify you. That unique token is sent with every request the browser sends to FB, even requests you don't initiate directly. These hidden requests happen all the time, like when a web developer embeds a FB like button on a page. The like button is actually generated and served by FB's serv…

I like to always use incognito browsing sessions when logging into Facebook. At some point I cleared all my cookies too. I remember a while back an article was posted about how to uniquely identify users without cookies though. I don't recall the exact method though, or if in this scenario it would require javascript and not just a link to a like button.

Basically you're using the specs the browser sends about the computer - OS, screen size, add-ons installed.. this gets pretty unique. I've been able to identify friends on a local site just by knowing them and their computers.

Check yourself here:

https://panopticlick.eff.org/

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#26

Post by username223 »

Stalkers gonna stalk, makers gonna make, founders gonna found. We nerds always knew that the Facebook, Google, etc. images were tracking beacons, and their business model was, to paraphrase Eric Schmidt, to get as close as possible to the creepy line. Fortunately, it is/was easy to opt out by DNS-blocking a few hosts. If this behavior becomes common, back-end data sharing and syncing will become the norm, and something like ToR will become necessary, then local encryption, then...

But who ever said fighting crime was easy?

EDIT: "And I have no doubt that the vast majority of engineers, designers, and policy makers working in Silicon Valley want to do the right thing."

How can I even pretend to believe that the author believes that? They mostly don't know what the "right thing" is, don't think of their behavior in moral terms, and wouldn't dent their salaries to act morally.

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#27

Post by jessaustin »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #22

Is this a problem? Who stays logged into Facebook? My browser does an auto fill for my user name and password, I login for 10 minutes to see postings from my brother, grandson, neices, etc. and then logoff. Never occurred to me to stay logged into FB. In the same way, I like to use a separate web browser for just using Google and twitter. Small easy steps for maintaining a modicum of privacy.

Who stays logged into Facebook?

That isn't relevant. There are login cookies and there are tracking cookies. Unless one arranges for the tracking cookies to be deleted regularly, one will be tracked even if not logged in.

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#28

Post by eevilspock »

username223 wrote: post #26

Stalkers gonna stalk, makers gonna make, founders gonna found. We nerds always knew that the Facebook, Google, etc. images were tracking beacons, and their business model was, to paraphrase Eric Schmidt, to get as close as possible to the creepy line. Fortunately, it is/was easy to opt out by DNS-blocking a few hosts. If this behavior becomes common, back-end data sharing and syncing will become the norm, and somethi…

The problem is that most of the victims are accomplices to the crime, but even more so the makers and founders who make out on ad revenue.

Advertising is our C8: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10047706. That comment net 48 votes so I am cautiously hopeful. I say "net" because everytime I call out the moral failing of the ad "business model", I get downvotes. The salaries of too many people here are underwriten by ads.

Re: Internet Companies: Confusing Consumers for Profit

#29

Post by username223 »

joosters wrote: post #23
r0naa wrote: post #4

I do have a Facebook account, primarily because I am studying abroad and I need to keep in touch with my family and close friends and Facebook is, thus far, the best way to share what is going on in my life. It kind of allow me to "broadcast" my life events. Now, I really dislike what I just read. I wonder if tech companies have a moral obligation to disclose to the user what are the terms of the contracts. While ToS…

It's not just that privacy policies / ToS are using complex legal language. The real problem is that they are so broad. For example, just about every privacy policy states that information collected can be used to improve the company's products & services, or to help develop new ones. That effectively gives the company free reign to do whatever they like with your data. Who knows that products they may decide to offe…

> The real problem is that they are so broad.

Before I click the "go away" button, I interpret the wall of text as "we'll do whatever we want, and if you disagree, you can try to sue us, but the PR campaign will be what matters, not the legal stuff."

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