Live data from Hacker News

Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

bbc.com

111–120 of 145 posts

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#111

In general, I welcome the day when universities get what is coming to them for this kind of stuff (see also: Marvell vs CMU for 300+ million, reduced from 1.5 billion on appeal, etc). In particular, given how much industry funds them, collaborates with their professors, etc, what is going on now is a remarkably stupid approach mostly driven by tech transfer offices that want to prove their value. Which will be "zero"…

You think they're funding researchers at market rates?

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#112
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your basis for the claim they've not evaluated the tradeoffs or tried to design an efficient implementation? The patent seems to be based on this paper: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=264189 . It has an extensive experimental evaluation. Another thing to keep in mind is that Sohi, Vijaykumar and Moshovos are all respected computer architecture researchers, and this paper was published in ISCA, which is the…

That might be true, but that doesn't mean it's something that should be patented.

Would you like to expand on why you think it shouldn't be patented?

Architectural optimizations are often dismissed by outsiders as being "obvious", but what they don't see are all the other "obvious" ideas that don't work for various subtle reasons. I worry that if you make these techniques unpatentable, they'd become trade secrets and nobody would publish them, and we'd be worse off as a community.

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind the patent was filed in 1996 when considering the level of innovation.

There were branch-predicting mainframes back in the 80s, though it really came to the fore with the advent of superscalar microprocessors in the early 90s (MIPS R8000 and DEC Alpha 21064), what is the paper's innovations above these?

This is not even related to branch prediction, it is a scheme for controlling load speculation. This means executing a load out of order, even if there are stores with unresolved addresses ahead of it. This paper isn't proposing load speculation, it's proposing a predictor when for when it should be done.

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#114
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are trolling other patent trolls, then why not?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Sometimes it does. Fight fire with fire, an eye for an eye, history is replete with references to common sense refuting what you are saying.

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#115
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the university can provide better services[1] to the public if it's profitable. [1] Like an NFL-class stadium.

I'm not trying to be snarky but are you being serious ? Because NFL-Class Stadium is not one of the features I would think of if I was doing a bullet list of things a university should have. My 30k student university has a sports hall and a gym.

Some of the major college football programs have a net worth over half a billion dollars each. The University of Texas Leghorns (men's football program) brings in over USD$130 million a year. UT has 50K students.

http://www.ibj.com/blogs/4-the-score/post/45498-notre-dame-n...

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#116
post #32

How is this journalism? It doesn't even tell you the damn patent number.

At the top of the gray bar there's a "Contact BBC News" link. (Not the "contact us" link at the very bottom of the page.) For this article it's here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20039682 Please do let them know that they need to start linking, or at least naming, documents that they're talking about. They do it all the time and I agree it's annoying. They'll discuss a medical study and not have any links to it. Sometim…

Given that only those currently affiliated with a university can read medical studies, I can't blame them too much for that one.

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it could have been one sentence long, which is why the opening section is only one sentence long. To quote directly from the article (the first sentence, in bold): > Apple faces a bill of $862m (£565m) after losing a patent lawsuit. It then goes on to describe what products the patent covers, when the patent was filed, what it does, what other companies have been sued infringing, what the outcomes was, what the l…

> It then goes on to describe what products the patent covers, when the patent was filed, what it does, what other companies have been sued infringing, what the outcomes was, what the likely outcomes is going to be in this case and the factors that are likely to have an effect. Oddly enough, they got lots of these things wrong. Here's the patent in question: http://www.google.com/patents/US5781752 1. It was filed in…

> they got lots of these things wrong

> 1. It was filed in 1996, not 1998.

Ok they used 'filed' when they should have used 'issued' or 'granted'. That's technically incorrect although unlikely to matter to layreader.

> The patent itself doesn't say anything about power efficiency (although perhaps that was argued at trial), so I'm not sure where they got that.

It's argued explicitly in the complaint. Not sure how you count this as something they got wrong since they're right just because it's not footnoted to a level you're comfortable with.

> That may be true, but it's so vague as to be pretty information-free.

It is in fact true and I don't find it vague at all. What information do you think need to be included in an article pointed at the casual reader?

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#118
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be true, but that doesn't mean it's something that should be patented.

Would you like to expand on why you think it shouldn't be patented? Architectural optimizations are often dismissed by outsiders as being "obvious", but what they don't see are all the other "obvious" ideas that don't work for various subtle reasons. I worry that if you make these techniques unpatentable, they'd become trade secrets and nobody would publish them, and we'd be worse off as a community.

I hear that "nobody would publish" argument bandied about... but is there any evidence to back it up?

These were University researchers. It's not like they're in it for the crazy-$$. In my experience, they'd publish anyway... for all the right reasons: furthering humanity, intellectual curiosity, academic prestige, etc.

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#119
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be true, but that doesn't mean it's something that should be patented.

Would you like to expand on why you think it shouldn't be patented? Architectural optimizations are often dismissed by outsiders as being "obvious", but what they don't see are all the other "obvious" ideas that don't work for various subtle reasons. I worry that if you make these techniques unpatentable, they'd become trade secrets and nobody would publish them, and we'd be worse off as a community.

Given the incredibly long life of patents relative to how quickly the computer industry moves (still, in the post-Moore's Law era), I'd argue trade secrets would be preferable.

If someone did implement this into a chip that was successful, it would take a lot less than 20 years to reverse engineer how they did it, even if they took steps to avoid reverse engineering.

Re: Apple facing huge chip patent bill after losing case

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to be snarky but are you being serious ? Because NFL-Class Stadium is not one of the features I would think of if I was doing a bullet list of things a university should have. My 30k student university has a sports hall and a gym.

Some of the major college football programs have a net worth over half a billion dollars each. The University of Texas Leghorns (men's football program) brings in over USD$130 million a year. UT has 50K students. http://www.ibj.com/blogs/4-the-score/post/45498-notre-dame-n...

Yeah, in the conferences with TV deals the sports programs are not a money sink. The Big 10 certainly has a TV deal (it even has its own cable network).

Also, just the ticket sales for one game at Camp Randall Stadium bring in ~$4 million.

Post reply on HN