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19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

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61–70 of 115 posts

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#61
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't wear any cotton/polyester blends. > Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. (Deut 22:11, KJV) Most Christians I've known believe that some combination of Matt 15:11 (Jesus) and Acts 10 (Paul) mean that while the morality expoused in the original Law is forever relevant, the practical concerns (what to eat, what clothing to wear, how to handle menstruation) and…

> "I hope you don't wear any cotton/polyester blends." That's an odd way to answer someone who's actually given you a thoughtful reply.

He was referring to the command in the Old Testament that bans wearing fabric blends. One thing to remember is that Jesus didn't nullify the law, he fulfilled the law. There were two types of rules in the Old Testament, ethical and lifestyle. There are a few instances in the New Testament where lifestyle rules are explicitly ignored without any condemnation for the actions (the opposite instead). The bleeding woman touching Jesus, Peter being told to eat unclean animals (meaning go talk to the Gentiles), and Paul telling the Galatians that the Gentiles do NOT need to be circumcised to be saved.

If one loves God and their neighbor, all the ethical law will be followed. One interesting loophole that Jesus removed was to love one another as He loved them (John 13:34) which is different than "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#62
post #20
post #3

Call me old fashioned, but as a father and husband I do try to act this way: "He should always be ready to sacrifice his present personal pleasure to the future well-being of those who have the first and best claim to his regard.”

“The same law which imposes upon the husband the duty of supporting his wife, gives him a general and paramount claim to her obedience.” I bet you don't get this bit in return.

I have heard this (or something very close to it) preached in a 21st-century church.

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#63
post #3

Call me old fashioned, but as a father and husband I do try to act this way: "He should always be ready to sacrifice his present personal pleasure to the future well-being of those who have the first and best claim to his regard.”

Old fashion. :-)

But, more seriously, as a counter, I've spent most of my adult life trying to be less 'manly' and more male (xy-chromosomer ). The western traditions of what it means to be 'a man' have not made my life better. Instead, they've given me anxiety, panic attacks, and caused a lot of feigned aggression, defensiveness, self medication, and regret.

I'm not against tradition, and I have a lot of respect for people who try to keep traditions alive. This one's just not for me.

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is potentially a very ignorant question but, how do you choose which passages should not be followed?

Loosely speaking, God/"Moses" put a bunch of rules in play for the early Israelites. Then Jesus came around and said "it's all about love." Then Paul clarified Jesus with more specific directions. So Paul > Jesus > Moses, mostly because of chronology. Let's take gay people as an example. Moses said no, Jesus said it's all about love, and Paul said no to gay people. So even though Jesus is always right, in practice he…

  > Edit: A cynical me would also say that interpretation depends on agenda.
Replace 'agenda' with 'cognitive bias' and you have the entirety of human thought.

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#65
post #20
post #3

Call me old fashioned, but as a father and husband I do try to act this way: "He should always be ready to sacrifice his present personal pleasure to the future well-being of those who have the first and best claim to his regard.”

“The same law which imposes upon the husband the duty of supporting his wife, gives him a general and paramount claim to her obedience.” I bet you don't get this bit in return.

It would be sexist to assume an obligation of obedience.

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the concept is most often associated with Rousseau in the 18th century. What the Victorian era had as an advantage was steam powered printing presses to spread uniform cultural concepts (regardless of their veracity or value) over broader areas more quickly. I'm glad we're finally living in an era that has gotten past that.

And an empire with the world's largest military, ruled by a despotic aristocracy which had made most of its money from slavery, drug running, and land + resource grabs in distant countries. "Moral" is perhaps not quite the most apt word. >I'm glad we're finally living in an era that has gotten past that. We haven't. The product has become American Neoliberal Capitalism instead of British Imperial Capitalism, but it's…

> And an empire with the world's largest military, ruled by a despotic aristocracy which had made most of its money from slavery, drug running, and land + resource grabs in distant countries.

Calling the ruling class of the British Empire a despotic aristocracy is a very big stretch, or better a contradiction. Despotic regimes have non-existent or vestigial aristocracies, e.g. the Ottoman Empire or most Chinese dynasties. The Russian Empire had an aristocracy had what looked kind of like a Western European aristocracy but a service nobility functions very differently from one where the nobility have independent power bases. For much more on this Francis Fukuyuma's "The Origins of Political Order" is excellent. In brief there are three political classes in pre-modern societies, the monarch, the high nobility and the gentry/bourgeoisie. The peasantry are irrelevant because they can't coordinate so their numbers are moot. A strong civil society with rule of law that binds the king/state as well as other actors emerged only in Western Europe. If the law binds the king he's no despot, and it did. In Britain, Scandinavia and the Netherlands the king allied with the gentry, in France and Iberia, with the nobility but their power was constrained.

Imperialism did contribute to the power of these states, more to the noble class than the country as a whole but it was not where that power ultimately came from. It came from growth in economic productivity and the organisational capability it made possible. The British Empire was not planned, it was the product of absurdly huge differences in capability. It was acquired over centuries by men on the spot chasing personal glory and advancement.

This is not to deny the slavery, drug running and land and resource grabs but they are frankly secondary. The Royal Navy was the force behind the destruction of the slave trade. The British parliament abolished slavery within the British Empire over the protests of some very rich and well connected domestic interests. The opium trade and the immiseration of India were enormous crimes but the capability preceded the crimes and was only possible because of it. Britain's wealth was not built on the Empire, it was built on trade, commerce and industry.

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#67
post #3

Call me old fashioned, but as a father and husband I do try to act this way: "He should always be ready to sacrifice his present personal pleasure to the future well-being of those who have the first and best claim to his regard.”

why should that be stated in a gendered way?

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#68
post #43

The destruction of Western society's moral backbone through the degeneration of traditional marriage such that the Victorian account reads anachronistic to a modern reader, is, I'd venture, a relatively positive development. The conception of traditional marriage that cruder familialists and social conservatives promote then is not really that traditional, nor divinely enshrined.

Back when traditional marriage was strong, it was acceptable for people to own people, for young children to be forced to work in sweatshops, and for people to be persecuted, imprisoned, or even killed because of homosexual activity. If that's what qualifies as society's "moral backbone" then I am extremely grateful to have destroyed it.

I was being sardonic about the "moral backbone," if you failed to pick that up.

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#69

The destruction of Western society's moral backbone through the degeneration of traditional marriage such that the Victorian account reads anachronistic to a modern reader, is, I'd venture, a relatively positive development. The conception of traditional marriage that cruder familialists and social conservatives promote then is not really that traditional, nor divinely enshrined.

Yeah, I always cringe when conservative politicians rant about 'traditional' marriage. Especially when the bulk of their region's history allowed for things like polygamy^1 and forcing their victim to marry them after rape^2. To be fair, their 'traditional' definition of marriage is certainty saner than parts of the historical version in the good book:

^1 "..I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down." (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

^2 "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

Re: 19th Century Marriage Manuals: Advice for Young Husbands

#70
post #20
post #3

Call me old fashioned, but as a father and husband I do try to act this way: "He should always be ready to sacrifice his present personal pleasure to the future well-being of those who have the first and best claim to his regard.”

“The same law which imposes upon the husband the duty of supporting his wife, gives him a general and paramount claim to her obedience.” I bet you don't get this bit in return.

I wouldn't say "claiming obedience" should be accurate, but earned respect gets respect in return from any decent human being.
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