Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 172 posts

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#161

Post by gambiting »

itsybitsycoder wrote: post #154
gambiting wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? To me, as a person from EU, it seems insane that a country where I haven't actually earned the money would want to tax it in any way or form. That's just ridiculous. You should pay income tax in the country where you made money. And why should I keep citizenship of a country that I moved out of? Because...I want to? Because I feel like a citizen of a country even if I live and make my living somewher…

This doesn't really apply to expats, but income tax isn't really about income, it's about funding all the public services you use. There are problems right now in parts of Canada where wealthy people from other countries are sending their families here and staying to work in their home countries. Their families live in multimillion dollar houses and get hundreds of thousands a year in "child support", but they also c…

That sounds like "child support" should be taxed then. If expats can send "millions of dollars" to family in Canada and they don't pay a single cent as tax, then it's a tax system problem. And hey, on the other hand, if that family spends those millions in Canada, then it's a net benefit :P I'm sure even if the "income" is not taxed, all the money they spend actually is, so their amount of taxes paid to Canada might be significant.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#162

Post by deong »

vidarh wrote: post #134
deong wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually talked with an accountant in the US my first tax year living year, and her advice was "don't use an accountant". I have no idea if this is true or not, but according to her, the IRS's view is basically, "we know this is complicated stuff, so do your best, and if you make a mistake, no big deal", whereas if you hire an accountant and get something wrong, the assumption is that you're trying to avoid taxes.

It seems tax authorities can be surprisingly flexible as long as they don't get a whiff of attempted tax evasion anywhere. E.g. at some point around 2000 or so, I'd just moved to the UK, and my personal finances were total chaos around the move. I'd sold quite a lot of shares in Norway, and traded quite a bit on NASDAQ via a US brokerage account (in 2000... yes, it got ugly; thankfully not that much money), and had i…

Yes. I moved to Iceland from Tennessee, a state with no state income tax. However, I needed a permanent address where I was sure I'd get mail, because I hadn't yet found a long-term rental in Iceland, so I did my Federal tax return using my mom's address in Arkansas, where there is a state income tax.

A couple of years later, Arkansas wanted to know why I didn't pay them any tax on my income from that year. I called someone, explained the situation, and he just had me write a letter. Problem solved.

We're conditioned to fear the IRS because audits look horrible on fictionalized TV shows. In reality, I think you're right. The IRS is just a collection of people, and if you make an honest effort, the person on the other end isn't out to ruin you.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#163

Post by stalcottsmith »

patio11 wrote: post #57
TimSchumann wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with $10k of financial engineering the problem goes away for forever As an American this upsets me greatly to hear. I feel it makes living abroad, especially to families of average means in this country, almost an impossible feat. I also wonder if only leaving the country for short duration vacation/business contributes to the "We're the best country ever!" mentality here and the "Wow, look at those weirdos over in…

almost an impossible feat. FWIW: this is clearly not the case. It's just a paperwork burden with occasional inconveniences, some bigger than others. Millions of Americans, most of whom have more modest means than the typical software engineer on HN, make it work.

Agreed. People make more of a deal about this than it is. If you are actually doing business overseas or own an actual operating business corporation overseas employing people (depending on the country), US paperwork looks relatively benign.

The real harm for business people overseas is that opportunities may be closed for you to invest in other businesses or to join a board or something because your status as a US Person causes a burden for others. At the 100 million dollar level I imagine this is not a big deal but at the startup and smaller growth company level it seems problematic. This reduces the opportunity for soft diplomacy and representing the brand of America to foreign people of means and substance.

I would be curious to know if you have experienced or anticipate experiencing this. Perhaps where you are is more closed to foreigners but there are countries where foreigners do lots of business. Have you been invited to invest or participate in boards?

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#164

Post by itsybitsycoder »

gambiting wrote: post #161
itsybitsycoder wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't really apply to expats, but income tax isn't really about income, it's about funding all the public services you use. There are problems right now in parts of Canada where wealthy people from other countries are sending their families here and staying to work in their home countries. Their families live in multimillion dollar houses and get hundreds of thousands a year in "child support", but they also c…

That sounds like "child support" should be taxed then. If expats can send "millions of dollars" to family in Canada and they don't pay a single cent as tax, then it's a tax system problem. And hey, on the other hand, if that family spends those millions in Canada, then it's a net benefit :P I'm sure even if the "income" is not taxed, all the money they spend actually is, so their amount of taxes paid to Canada might…

For sure it's a tax system problem, but in the usual case (where it was already taxed once in Canada) it makes sense not to double-tax child support.

AFAICT most of the money isn't spent here, it's parked here as a hedge in case something goes south in the home country, usually in real estate holdings. The biggest effect I can see is that housing in the city is too expensive for the locals now so families are being driven out into rural areas.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#165

Post by hysan »

mikeash wrote: post #158
hysan wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time difference + cost makes it almost prohibitively difficult in my case.

Unless you sleep for 16 hours a day, your waking time will overlap with office hours in Washington at some point. Skype can call to the US for very low cost.

Umm... do you even figure having a full time job into account? One that often goes into the weekends? Also, you are painting broad strokes.

1. With my time difference, I'd have to call my reps at a time when I'd normally be getting ready to sleep just to catch them in the morning.

2. In addition to that, not everyone has good internet connection. Especially if you live in a remote area. Prior to a year ago, my internet connection at home was fairly slow.

3. Yes, I'll admit that I forgot about Skype since it wasn't reliable for me in the first few years I was here. However, cost is cost. And having to manage Skype Credits, which I'd never use elsewhere, is just an extra burden compared to what it was like back in the States.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#166

Post by mikeash »

hysan wrote: post #165
mikeash wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you sleep for 16 hours a day, your waking time will overlap with office hours in Washington at some point. Skype can call to the US for very low cost.

Umm... do you even figure having a full time job into account? One that often goes into the weekends? Also, you are painting broad strokes. 1. With my time difference, I'd have to call my reps at a time when I'd normally be getting ready to sleep just to catch them in the morning. 2. In addition to that, not everyone has good internet connection. Especially if you live in a remote area. Prior to a year ago, my intern…

I get that it's not quite as easy as it would be from the US. But "prohibitively difficult" makes it sound like you're looking for excuses rather than solutions. It might be a little harder but it's not exactly hard. Twenty years ago you'd be paying painful long distance charges just to make that call within the US.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#167

Post by hysan »

mikeash wrote: post #166
hysan wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm... do you even figure having a full time job into account? One that often goes into the weekends? Also, you are painting broad strokes. 1. With my time difference, I'd have to call my reps at a time when I'd normally be getting ready to sleep just to catch them in the morning. 2. In addition to that, not everyone has good internet connection. Especially if you live in a remote area. Prior to a year ago, my intern…

I get that it's not quite as easy as it would be from the US. But "prohibitively difficult" makes it sound like you're looking for excuses rather than solutions. It might be a little harder but it's not exactly hard. Twenty years ago you'd be paying painful long distance charges just to make that call within the US.

Yes, I'll take back the prohibitively part since I had my internet upgraded a year ago. But prior to that, it was. Can you think of a way to do so without Skype? Or a reliable internet connection? Something that would be possible to do from home since the only overlapping hours are after 9/10pm in my timezone?

And aside from that, it still does not detract from my original statement:

> the effectiveness of getting your voice heard by your "representatives" (the reps from your last permanent residence in the US) is much more difficult

It's not just the contacting. It's also getting them to even care because you don't live on US soil. None of what I'm saying is an excuse, and I don't know why you seem intent on not acknowledging that it can be legitimately difficult.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#168

Post by mikeash »

hysan wrote: post #167
mikeash wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that it's not quite as easy as it would be from the US. But "prohibitively difficult" makes it sound like you're looking for excuses rather than solutions. It might be a little harder but it's not exactly hard. Twenty years ago you'd be paying painful long distance charges just to make that call within the US.

Yes, I'll take back the prohibitively part since I had my internet upgraded a year ago. But prior to that, it was. Can you think of a way to do so without Skype? Or a reliable internet connection? Something that would be possible to do from home since the only overlapping hours are after 9/10pm in my timezone? And aside from that, it still does not detract from my original statement: > the effectiveness of getting yo…

If you have a phone at all, there are cards you can buy to make cheap international calls by bouncing through a local number. If you don't have a phone, well, you're stuck, but that's hardly characteristic of being abroad, and you'd have the same trouble from a shack in the mountains in the US.

As for caring about your opinion, why would they care any less about you compared to any other voter?

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#169

Post by ptaipale »

deong wrote: post #162
vidarh wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems tax authorities can be surprisingly flexible as long as they don't get a whiff of attempted tax evasion anywhere. E.g. at some point around 2000 or so, I'd just moved to the UK, and my personal finances were total chaos around the move. I'd sold quite a lot of shares in Norway, and traded quite a bit on NASDAQ via a US brokerage account (in 2000... yes, it got ugly; thankfully not that much money), and had i…

Yes. I moved to Iceland from Tennessee, a state with no state income tax. However, I needed a permanent address where I was sure I'd get mail, because I hadn't yet found a long-term rental in Iceland, so I did my Federal tax return using my mom's address in Arkansas, where there is a state income tax. A couple of years later, Arkansas wanted to know why I didn't pay them any tax on my income from that year. I called…

> The IRS is just a collection of people, and if you make an honest effort, the person on the other end isn't out to ruin you.

Yes, they are people, but if what happens to you depends on people, the end results can be rather unpredictable.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#170

Post by hysan »

mikeash wrote: post #168
hysan wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'll take back the prohibitively part since I had my internet upgraded a year ago. But prior to that, it was. Can you think of a way to do so without Skype? Or a reliable internet connection? Something that would be possible to do from home since the only overlapping hours are after 9/10pm in my timezone? And aside from that, it still does not detract from my original statement: > the effectiveness of getting yo…

If you have a phone at all, there are cards you can buy to make cheap international calls by bouncing through a local number. If you don't have a phone, well, you're stuck, but that's hardly characteristic of being abroad, and you'd have the same trouble from a shack in the mountains in the US. As for caring about your opinion, why would they care any less about you compared to any other voter?

Never knew about or seen the phone card before. Good thing to remember, but do they really have this in every country? But do note that with a shack in the mountains, you'd probably have normal landline access and even possibly cellular reception, so it's not a good comparison.

I said the caring part out of frustration with the current system. I've always felt that if they couldn't map you to a US address within their jurisdiction, then they'd know that you had less of an ability to influence other voters around you via petitions, grassroots campaigns, etc. So discounting your opinion wouldn't matter as much.

Post reply on HN