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Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

blog.jonathanoliver.com

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Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#91

Post by matwood »

andyana wrote: post #54
Const-me wrote: post #25

“traditional Windows devs are typically only good at Windows” — why? I developed for Windows, Nintendo, iOS, OSX… “NIX guys on the other hand are typically familiar with multiple operating systems” Nope, they aren’t familiar with Windows. Just an example, I only see *nix developers started using I/O completion ports (which is the best I/O strategy for a Windows network servers since Windows NT 3.51) only couple of ye…

I have to agree with the author: the Window's guy are usually the ones focused on Window's only solutions. Like, for example, a Windows admin having not heard of nmap. This is common.

I haven't used Windows in years, so I'm sure there are Windows oriented tools I haven't heard of.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#92

Post by wdmeldon »

jonathanoliver wrote: post #70
jbigelow76 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see how many of the critiques the author cited in 2013 no longer apply to the .NET ecosystem. To name a few: * Git is now a first class VCS for use with Visual Studio * .NET development no longer tied to Visual Studio thanks to things like VS Code or OmniSharp with Submline * .NET development no longer tied to Windows, dev with a Mac or Linux using .NET core

OP here. My concerns have been or are being addressed. We're still a ways off from having things solid on Windows and Linux. All things considered, I'm happy with Satya's leadership of Microsoft over the last few years.

I only wonder how far these new attitudes will seep into the general .NET developer culture.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#93

Post by Const-me »

andyana wrote: post #86
Const-me wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Сould you please estimate what share of *nix admins have heard about VBScript, PowerShell, WMI or group policy?

I think you would find most unix admins know of those things. Powershell is your bash, WMI is your /proc. VBScript and group policy would be things you come across if you work with Samba.

“Powershell is your bash” — Cmd.exe is your bash. Powershell doesn’t process text streams, it operates on .NET CLR objects. PowerShell by itself is more like interactive python shell. But it’s power isn’t language or interpreter, but the amount of things exposed to that language.

“WMI is your /proc” — also ifconfig, /var/log, /etc/fstab, /etc/network/interfaces, and a lot more, and with remote access.

“VBScript and group policy would be things you come across if you work with Samba” — completely unrelated. VBScript is more or less your Perl, but again with lots of things exposed to the language (besides WMI, there are ADSI, CDO, etc).

AFAIK there’s nothing in *nix world resembling group policy.

“most unix admins know of those things” — you see? Most unix admins know almost nothing of those things. So why do you expect a Windows admin should know about nmap? On Windows, people usually use other tools instead of nmap, e.g. netstat, portqry, and tcpview.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#94

Post by organsnyder »

melling wrote: post #74
organsnyder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're severely downplaying the importance of Firefox. It had a 30% market share before Chrome even existed.

By the way, I fact checked you and you're incorrect. http://www.computerworld.com/article/2893514/an-incredibly-s... http://kuwaitiful.com/tag/ie-market-share/

Depends on which metrics you look at. Regardless, 25% vs. 30% doesn't change the substance of the argument.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#95

Post by organsnyder »

melling wrote: post #66
organsnyder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're severely downplaying the importance of Firefox. It had a 30% market share before Chrome even existed.

It was ignored by many developers, especially in the corporate world. Pages did not render well

That is true. However, by the time Chrome rolled along, most sites rendered fine in Firefox, and Safari had also been around for quite some time already. Chrome certainly helped to accelerate the pace of standards-compliant site design, but the trend was already underway before it existed.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#96

Post by V-2 »

vinceguidry wrote: post #90
untog wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're wondering why you are being downvoted, everything you've stated so far has been opinion with no facts to back it up. Why do you think Ruby is more productive than C#? From my position (as someone who has worked with both lightly, but not extensively) I don't see it - things like LINQ in C# are enormously productive.

I'm not wondering, I've been around the block long enough to know how the upvote / downvote convention works. I'm actually surprised I'm not being downvoted more. Dynamic typing adds an entire layer of depth to the things you can do with tooling, over and on top of what you can do with reflection. If I don't know what's going on in a web app, I can load it up in a developer console, get right to where it's going wron…

I don't want to argue over what "enormously" means, but LINQ is a big boost for productivity, and it's not just LINQ-to-Objects, but also LINQ to SQL, and extensibility thanks to expression trees.

And LINQ isn't an isolated example. There's an asynchronous solution for asynchronous programming built in the language (async/await since C# 5.0).

There's reactive programming - RxJava is most popular these days, and most major languages have their RX thing now, but it was in the .NET world where Reactive Extensions saw the daylight for the first time.

Or MVVM (10 years later, Google began introducing it to Android, though it's not production-ready yet).

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#97

Post by andyana »

Const-me wrote: post #93
andyana wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you would find most unix admins know of those things. Powershell is your bash, WMI is your /proc. VBScript and group policy would be things you come across if you work with Samba.

“Powershell is your bash” — Cmd.exe is your bash. Powershell doesn’t process text streams, it operates on .NET CLR objects. PowerShell by itself is more like interactive python shell. But it’s power isn’t language or interpreter, but the amount of things exposed to that language. “WMI is your /proc” — also ifconfig, /var/log, /etc/fstab, /etc/network/interfaces, and a lot more, and with remote access. “VBScript and g…

We can elaborate on those all day, but I nailed the gist of it and you know it.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#98

Post by andyana »

Const-me wrote: post #93
andyana wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you would find most unix admins know of those things. Powershell is your bash, WMI is your /proc. VBScript and group policy would be things you come across if you work with Samba.

“Powershell is your bash” — Cmd.exe is your bash. Powershell doesn’t process text streams, it operates on .NET CLR objects. PowerShell by itself is more like interactive python shell. But it’s power isn’t language or interpreter, but the amount of things exposed to that language. “WMI is your /proc” — also ifconfig, /var/log, /etc/fstab, /etc/network/interfaces, and a lot more, and with remote access. “VBScript and g…

Also, please don't say that I don't know what those things are; I've spent more than a decade on each platform as developer/administrator and deal with both all the time. One of my first jobs was writing macros for Word in VBScript in the 90s.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#99

Post by Const-me »

andyana wrote: post #97
Const-me wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Powershell is your bash” — Cmd.exe is your bash. Powershell doesn’t process text streams, it operates on .NET CLR objects. PowerShell by itself is more like interactive python shell. But it’s power isn’t language or interpreter, but the amount of things exposed to that language. “WMI is your /proc” — also ifconfig, /var/log, /etc/fstab, /etc/network/interfaces, and a lot more, and with remote access. “VBScript and g…

We can elaborate on those all day, but I nailed the gist of it and you know it.

No you haven't: powershell isn't bash, WMI is much more then a /proc, and both VBScript and group policy are completely unrelated to SMB/CIFS.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#100

Post by andyana »

andyana wrote: post #97
Const-me wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Powershell is your bash” — Cmd.exe is your bash. Powershell doesn’t process text streams, it operates on .NET CLR objects. PowerShell by itself is more like interactive python shell. But it’s power isn’t language or interpreter, but the amount of things exposed to that language. “WMI is your /proc” — also ifconfig, /var/log, /etc/fstab, /etc/network/interfaces, and a lot more, and with remote access. “VBScript and g…

We can elaborate on those all day, but I nailed the gist of it and you know it.

VBScript would be something a Samba admin would know of due to VBS being used often for login scripts. Netlogon is a share you would have on your Samba server. Group policy is distributed over SMB. Is this news to you?
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