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Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

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Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#131

Post by Nursie »

cnp wrote: post #128
Nursie wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there isn't. There is validity in the fact that the substances make people think that they are healing tools. Until or unless there is actually a quantifiable effect it is not a fact that they can be said to heal anything.

A single trip report could be worth a thousand peer reviewed papers, and a thousand trip reports could create a new science -- if you're willing to listen.

>> A single trip report could be worth a thousand peer reviewed papers

It really couldn't, you know. It's subjective experience.

>> and a thousand trip reports could create a new science

A thousand may contain useful data if corrected for confirmation bias etc, but no, not a whole new science.

>> if you're willing to listen.

I have tripped. Many times. I know it well. It's not about being willing to listen, it's about being objective.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#132

Post by cnp »

Nursie wrote: post #131
cnp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single trip report could be worth a thousand peer reviewed papers, and a thousand trip reports could create a new science -- if you're willing to listen.

>> A single trip report could be worth a thousand peer reviewed papers It really couldn't, you know. It's subjective experience. >> and a thousand trip reports could create a new science A thousand may contain useful data if corrected for confirmation bias etc, but no, not a whole new science. >> if you're willing to listen. I have tripped. Many times. I know it well. It's not about being willing to listen, it's abou…

Not everything needs to be objectively verified in order to be agreed upon as useful or valid. Sometimes objective validation comes, by necessity, later.

I would recommend watching this documentary from Alejandro Jodorowsky's son, Christobol. Its important to watch it all the way through. In it he discusses Psychomagic and Psychoshamanism (two fields his father developed) and the relationship between ritual and healing, and how belief plays into the psychological or subconscious mechanism that promotes recovery. That's all I meant by my obviously rhetorical comments above, that there is an enormous amount of power within the belief centers of being.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOya-MersYs

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#133

Post by Nursie »

cnp wrote: post #132
Nursie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> A single trip report could be worth a thousand peer reviewed papers It really couldn't, you know. It's subjective experience. >> and a thousand trip reports could create a new science A thousand may contain useful data if corrected for confirmation bias etc, but no, not a whole new science. >> if you're willing to listen. I have tripped. Many times. I know it well. It's not about being willing to listen, it's abou…

Not everything needs to be objectively verified in order to be agreed upon as useful or valid. Sometimes objective validation comes, by necessity, later. I would recommend watching this documentary from Alejandro Jodorowsky's son, Christobol. Its important to watch it all the way through. In it he discusses Psychomagic and Psychoshamanism (two fields his father developed) and the relationship between ritual and heali…

Sorry, no time to dedicate to watching fanciful bullshit.

And yes, it does need to be verified before it can be said to be useful.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#134

Post by WorldWideWayne »

exodust wrote: post #130
WorldWideWayne wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the great explanation of an instance where stating a negative is not useful. However, in this case, I don't think one can say there is there's no scientific data or even a reasonable theory to suggest that "the mind" has any affect on the healing abilities of our bodies given that the placebo effect is our rule of measure for whether a drug works or not.

Well you did ask "please point to scientific research...", so an explanation was needed for why that wasn't going to happen. Didn't mean to annoy you with that. Placebos, sure. The thing that bothers me about placebos is the time variable. A course of placebos or drugs is also a course of time. Things heal in time, healing may have happened anyway in that time if nothing was done for those patients. Our immune system…

No problem! Not annoyed in the slightest, I enjoy exploring this subject. However, since you mentioned the phrase "miraculous healing" I get the feeling that you're ascribing an opinion to me that I do not have. You probably think most people who talk about the mind/body connection to be miracle-believing nut-bags, but that's not me. To me - a miracle is just a misunderstood event.

Saying that things heal in time/nature is just another way of affirming that "your body indeed has the ability to heal itself". But also consider the fact that placebos statistically quicken healing faster than nothing at all (e.g. just the passing of time). There's just no way that placebos would be used as a reliable control measure without having tested them against the theory that the passage of time is enough. I believe that most clinical trials also include or are compared against groups of people that take no placebo and no drug.

It's also been proven that the emotional pain in the mind can cause physical pain. And it's been proven that depression can cause you to actually get sick. So, I don't think it's a far leap to imagine that the mind can directly and significantly affect things in the opposite direction.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#135

Post by cnp »

Nursie wrote: post #133
cnp wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything needs to be objectively verified in order to be agreed upon as useful or valid. Sometimes objective validation comes, by necessity, later. I would recommend watching this documentary from Alejandro Jodorowsky's son, Christobol. Its important to watch it all the way through. In it he discusses Psychomagic and Psychoshamanism (two fields his father developed) and the relationship between ritual and heali…

Sorry, no time to dedicate to watching fanciful bullshit. And yes, it does need to be verified before it can be said to be useful.

Welp
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