Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#61

Post by DevKoala » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #44

V-2 wrote: post #20

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rub…

> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. To be fair, Rails is amazing , the most cutting-edge web framework out there, and it's settling into adulthood nicely. The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs. Whatever you could need is right at hand. The .NET dev sitting acro…

If a .NET developer who doesn't use proper source control seats next to you, then perhaps you should take a hard look at the place you work, maybe leave. When I worked with .NET I used TFS and Git. Also, I implemented RESTful web services using .NET's Web API, consumed by a large scale SPA implemented on AngularJS/TypeScript. I never had a complain.

Now, I work on an open source stack, and Rails is suited to only one project out of the multiple web services and applications I deal with. Rails does it's job well, but it isn't suited for everything.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#62

Post by jonathanoliver » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

mrspeaker wrote: post #7

minionslave wrote: post #4

From the comments: "Why do people have to "leave" technologies? Why can't they just add new technologies to their arsenals without dramatic quitting blog posts? You don't see musicians who have just learned to play the guitar writing "why I'm leaving the piano" posts. Go is great; Node.js is great; some JVM languages are fine; .NET has a hell of a lot going for it too. Evaluate your options at the start of every proj…

Did anyone else feel happy wave of nostalgia when reading this title? I haven't seen a "Why I'm leaving X" post for many years!

I wrote this article almost 2 years ago.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#63

Post by jonathanoliver » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:11 PM UTC

potato wrote: post #31

Outdated. Microsoft has clearly embraced open source, and is facilitating cross-platform .NET development (OmniSharp, ASP.NET 5). Async is a thing. SQL Server is not a con, switch to something else. Mono is reason to leave mono, not .NET.

OP here. The post was written 2 years ago before async/await were a thing and .NET only worked on Windows.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#64

Post by jonathanoliver » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

UK-AL wrote: post #39

platz wrote: post #21

Interesting that he didn't mention the core idea of this piece that got a fair amount of attention: http://www.aaronstannard.com/the-profound-weakness-of-the-ne... Namely, hat .NET developers don't really solve any hard problems

Ironically I think there a lot of distributed platforms for .net. NServiceBus, MassTransit. Akka.net, Orleans, etc

OP here. I also worked on NServiceBus extensively as well as a lot of event sourcing and CQRS stuff.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#65

Post by jonathanoliver » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

cachemiss wrote: post #19

camkego wrote: post #6

Author states "Using the Disruptor (a lock-free ring buffer on the JVM), you can easily process 20M+ events per second. On .NET using ordained "best practices" anything more than a dozen transactions per second is considered decent-to-good performance and at that point, you just need bigger/better/more hardware." WTF? This is inane.

Yeah, he's comparing one of the best optimized ring buffers on the JVM to actual transactions, that's one of the worst comparisons I've ever seen. I've shipped large scale systems on .NET and on the JVM, the issues you run into with .NET are that windows isn't as easy to administer IMO as linux variants, and your ecosystem isn't as strong, that's about it. .NET doesn't have a runtime profiler that will deoptimize / r…

OP here. I still really like the Disruptor style. You're right, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#66

Post by melling » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

organsnyder wrote: post #46

melling wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one point, not so not so very long ago, Microsoft had 96% desktop market share. I believe that has dropped to 89%, which is still a monopoly. The Internet made that less important but there was a time when Internet Explorer was all developers cared about. If you mentioned Mozilla, they just laughed. Fortunately, Google released Chrome and after several years developers fell in love with it. Unfortunately, IE still…

You're severely downplaying the importance of Firefox. It had a 30% market share before Chrome even existed.

It was ignored by many developers, especially in the corporate world. Pages did not render well

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#67

Post by pbz » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

aggieben wrote: post #12

I think this post is interesting, but mostly at this point useful as a frame of reference for all the changes that have happened in the .NET ecosystem in 2 years. For example, the server produced by the ASP.NET team (Kestrel) has now been benchmarked at over 300K req/s, and it's using libuv under the hood as an event-based IO engine. That's also not to mention that Mono has benefited tremendously from the new open-so…

> Soon enough, Microsoft will have its own port of CoreCLR for Linux.

CoreCRL alerady runs on Linux -- it's all very much beta though.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#68

Post by vinceguidry » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

edgyswingset wrote: post #56

vinceguidry wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. To be fair, Rails is amazing , the most cutting-edge web framework out there, and it's settling into adulthood nicely. The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs. Whatever you could need is right at hand. The .NET dev sitting acro…

I wouldn't let that personal experience bias your view. StackOverflow (often pointed to by .NET devs) is a prime example of engineers utilizing and pushing the limits of any tool you give them. I've also personally met and spoken with numerous .NET devs who are really good at what they do.

I never said there weren't. I know a really awesome C++ / Java dev that works with medical devices. That doesn't mean C++ isn't a terrible language. Very mature, and with the right libraries, tooling, and 30 years of experience, you can do amazing things fast with it. Just because a language / tech stack is terrible doesn't mean there aren't great people using it to do great things.

Should a new dev learn C++? I'd say they'd be better off with Go or Rust depending on what they're trying to do. Do we really want to be stuck with old, terrible languages forever? Imagine if we had to do web dev in Pascal.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#69

Post by WorldWideWayne » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #44

V-2 wrote: post #20

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rub…

> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. To be fair, Rails is amazing , the most cutting-edge web framework out there, and it's settling into adulthood nicely. The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs. Whatever you could need is right at hand. The .NET dev sitting acro…

> Whatever you could need is right at hand.

Except speed, a really nice IDE and good Windows support.

> The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs... > I think the main problem is that .NET tries to be all things to all devs...

So Ruby is all things to web devs, but it's a bad thing that .NET has the same goal for Windows-centric devs? That doesn't make any sense.

> C#...it's pretty damn far from being spectacular.

OK, why? Your response is full of opinion but you don't really back it up with any reasoning - so why should any value your words?

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#70

Post by jonathanoliver » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

jbigelow76 wrote: post #17

ipozgaj wrote: post #3

tl;dr version - it's mostly about the portability, shortcomings of Windows as OS, and accompanying software (VS, TFS, IIS, MSSQL etc) being bloated. Zero critics about the .NET framework itself.

It's interesting to see how many of the critiques the author cited in 2013 no longer apply to the .NET ecosystem. To name a few: * Git is now a first class VCS for use with Visual Studio * .NET development no longer tied to Visual Studio thanks to things like VS Code or OmniSharp with Submline * .NET development no longer tied to Windows, dev with a Mac or Linux using .NET core

OP here. My concerns have been or are being addressed. We're still a ways off from having things solid on Windows and Linux. All things considered, I'm happy with Satya's leadership of Microsoft over the last few years.