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Tablet Musings

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Re: Tablet Musings

#51

Post by GHFigs »

thechangelog wrote: post #45
GHFigs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iPhone has supported YouTube through a native application since it launched . It does this by streaming the MPEG-4 video directly instead of using Flash as a player. Every other video site does this as well, and they don't even need a native app or any server-side weirdness. The only reason we don't do this on the desktop is inertia. the majority of online display advertising Which no consumer gives a flying fuck…

Nobody in their right mind uses Flash for anything important. iPhone has, but I'd wager the vast majority of YouTube users watch videos in their browsers. the majority of online display advertising Advertisers are the revenue source for innumerable online sites; they like Flash so it is important. Re: uploaders... A native application...does the same thing. Sure, but again, I'd wager that most people use the on-site…

I'd wager the vast majority of YouTube users watch videos in their browsers.

Yes, but what are they actually doing? They're streaming the exact same h.264 video, except using the Flash plugin as a (buggy, inefficient) decoder.

they like Flash so it is important.

Not to users. Users are the ones who actually buy and use the devices that end up viewing the ads. No user buys a device for a better ad experience. That's nonsense.

nearly 100% market penetration

This is not going to hold true as more people browse the web on devices that lack Flash. Such devices may not be the sole or even primary way of browsing the web for some time, but in terms of total volume of web usage, it is already significant, and will only grow. It will make less and less sense to target a web platform that can't be reached every way that people use the web.

Re: Tablet Musings

#52

Post by robertj »

brianobush wrote: post #47
tentonova2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's necessarily a mistake if your goal is to strong-arm the industry towards abandoning Flash.

The problem with flash (and the upside) is that it lets designers tackle the whole problem of site design, fonts, look and feel, etc in their domain. I would love to see flash replaced by html5 and css, but I think momentum is not on my side.

Yeah but take projects like typekit, for instance. Clearly there are businesses to be made in solving some of these problems, and smart designers understand the importance of web accessibility. It seems like as developers and designers we'll create much more wealth finding creative ways to abandon Flash.

Re: Tablet Musings

#53

Post by chollida1 »

jcnnghm wrote: post #3

Not including flash on a tablet seems like a mistake to me. It's one thing on a cell phone, but quite another on a device that will probably be positioned as a casual use computer.

I'm not so sure that's true. I have flash block installed on all my computers. I've never had a problem surfing the web.

Re: Tablet Musings

#54

Post by allenp »

axod wrote: post #33
boucher wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer, that is sound advice. As a user, it's silly. I don't get to decide which websites use flash and which don't, and technical limitations don't dictate which sites I want to visit.

It works for me. That's why I've never been interested in adblocking software. If a site annoys me, I just don't go there any more. That's why I've hardly ever read any of the nytimes articles that get submitted here. Because they put them behind an irritating signup wall. There's accounts you can find on google but I really can't be bothered. It's not like there's a shortage of websites doing the same thing.

I agree - plenty of sites, why visit one that annoys you - but I will say that with advertising it is becoming less and less the case that the site actually chooses or even knows what ads are showing on their site.

Re: Tablet Musings

#55

Post by GHFigs »

josefresco wrote: post #50
GHFigs wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where do you see it going in some years? Do you see it becoming more important? Or is it a demonstrable fact that devices without Flash support have been highly successful in the market? Apple sold 7 million iPhones last quarter, and a few million more iPod Touches. One of the primary features of these, for which they are often praised, is web browsing. None of them, not even jailbroken ones, support Flash. Many…

In the coming years I do hope to see Flash die, but it's not going down without a fight, and it certainly still maintains a chokehold on almost the entire video delivery market which gives it massive leverage. 7 million iphones sold is great, but pales in comparison to how many pcs/macs are sold which come with full Flash support out of the box. The poor iPhone users with no Flash support deal with it because they bo…

7 million iphones sold

That's last quarter alone, not counting iPods, not considering the potential of a new device, which presumably will also lack Flash. Also not counting any of the other mobile devices that support web browsing which also lack Flash, of which there are many.

It's not approaching total PC sales, but that's not the point. Flash-less devices don't need to outsell PCs in order to have an impact on them. It's a big number. It's a growing number. It's a number that represents the declining relevance of Flash, among other things. The point really isn't the devices themselves, but with the fact that people are using the web more and more without Flash, and Adobe has no foothold.

how many pcs/macs are sold which come with full Flash support

Which a growing number of users promptly disable. Consider that the most popular web browser plugins and extensions are for blocking ads, which incidentally means they block most of the Flash content on the web. To me, that suggests that if you can give users decent alternatives to the other core uses of Flash--the things they actually like, like video--they won't miss it. This was easier for Apple to do with the iPhone, but I'd say they did it successfully. It seems like only a matter of time on the desktop, which is why I say it's dwindling and not that "X will kill it".

The poor iPhone users with no Flash support deal with it because they bought an Apple product and know 'the deal'.

This is just a repeat of the incredibly naive and hackneyed idea that Apple is floating on die hard true believers, and not the same sea of average customers as everybody else. In point of fact, most of Apple's revenue in the past decade has come from people who use Windows and have no particular attachment to the brand. Not enough of one, anyway, to persuade them that something that really is important to them isn't.

No, more likely is that supposedly vital things like Flash support, MMS, and copy-and-paste (don't forget copy-and-paste!) are not actually important features to very many people at all. They may be desirable and appreciated, but in practice they don't make much difference as to whether people buy them or not.

Re: Tablet Musings

#57

Post by jsz0 »

GHFigs wrote: post #46
josefresco wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what world is Flash 'dwindling in relevance'? Maybe the hyper progressive iphone-toting geek world but down here on planet earth, where we still browse the web with things called computers, Flash has massive leverage and I don't see it going anywhere for years.

And where do you see it going in some years? Do you see it becoming more important? Or is it a demonstrable fact that devices without Flash support have been highly successful in the market? Apple sold 7 million iPhones last quarter, and a few million more iPod Touches. One of the primary features of these, for which they are often praised, is web browsing. None of them, not even jailbroken ones, support Flash. Many…

I think you're right. Even when Adobe finally ships a modern Flash plugin for mobiles there are going to be some major usability issues. How do you deal with something like hovering on a touchscreen? or account for rendering properly on different size/resolution screens? It seems like we're going to reach the point quickly where trying to adapt Flash to work on a wide range of mobile devices isn't worth it.

Re: Tablet Musings

#58

Post by mkinsella »

tcdent wrote: post #39
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's just it...Apple's products vary widely in their degree of openness, from the iPod / iPhone / Apple TV on the end to their computers on the other end. So is this thing more like a computer (you buy it, you own it, hack it to hell and put anything you want on it), or an iPhone (you're basically renting this device from us, and we're going to dictate exactly what you can do with it)?

It's my understanding that the original reason behind the closed architecture of the iPhone was to keep the device secure on cell networks. Most of the restrictions are there to protect outside access, which is a good thing for the less savvy users. Plenty believe the App Store and SDK were an afterthought, added only after people grumbled about the restrictions of web-only apps, which were the simplest way to guaran…

Without the risk of an insecure cellular network, greed would be the only motivating factor in keeping this a closed device.

What about the rumors that the Tablet will include nationwide 3G access, similar to the Kindle? I believe this is a necessary addition -- think about how useful the iPhone would be without Edge/3G access: not at all.

Re: Tablet Musings

#59

Post by orangecat »

patrik wrote: post #48

What really amazes me is the fact that even on this site, the discussion barely touches the app store issue. It might be true that the tablet will have a significant impact on tomorrow's computing platforms. But what really scares me is the prospect that it might become more and more accepted that the user will loose the freedom to decide what software he can install and thus what to do with the machine. This is some…

Well said. The sort of control that Apple is trying to exert is terrible for both freedom and innovation; if Microsoft had it 15 years ago they never would have allowed the web to develop as it did. Yet Apple's fanboys are cheering them on as they position themselves to block any development that might interfere with their business model.

This is a major reason why I ordered a Nexus One today to replace "my" iPhone, which Steve has made clear is only mine in the sense that I paid for it.

Re: Tablet Musings

#60

Post by [deleted] »

mkinsella wrote: post #58
tcdent wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my understanding that the original reason behind the closed architecture of the iPhone was to keep the device secure on cell networks. Most of the restrictions are there to protect outside access, which is a good thing for the less savvy users. Plenty believe the App Store and SDK were an afterthought, added only after people grumbled about the restrictions of web-only apps, which were the simplest way to guaran…

Without the risk of an insecure cellular network, greed would be the only motivating factor in keeping this a closed device. What about the rumors that the Tablet will include nationwide 3G access, similar to the Kindle? I believe this is a necessary addition -- think about how useful the iPhone would be without Edge/3G access: not at all.

[deleted]
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