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Off the Grid, but Still Online

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Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#51

Post by Retric »

OneOneOneOne wrote: post #29
ecobiker wrote: post #17

(Disclaimer: Slightly off-topic. Also, it's not my intention to belittle their lifestyle. I hope I don't come across that way.) Some of the things they need even in this disconnected lifestyle - like the mobile home, laptops, books, solar panels, batteries and even the slippers have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere. The idea of civilization to me is to take advantage of these specialists who are really…

Right on. When considering lifestyle choices I ask myself how many people could live the same way. If it turns out to be a small minority before collapse, I reject it as a path for myself. To me off grid lifestyle seems a retreat from the goods of society without a commensurate benefit to self and others. As an art movement or experiment I say fine.

I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US population without many issues. Web + FedEx means a lot of jobs can be done remotely. Consider plenty of teachers work remotely even if most people think of it as a face to face job. Even some doctors have started to work remotely let alone the classic 9/5 office worker.

Sure, city's are a far more efficient use of land and energy, but at least in the US we still have a lot of open space.

PS: My only gripe is people think of this as a 'green' lifestyle. Generally, living in a city high-rise and using public transit is far better for the environment.

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#52

Post by romaniv »

derefr wrote: post #16
ctdonath wrote: post #10

Don't underestimate how much effort and devotion to the lifestyle it takes. Most of us just want a "turnkey" lifestyle, buying whatever on a whim and expecting it to just work (plug-in gadgets, packaged foods), with even our "staples" coming in such perfect condition (box of nails from Home Depot, beautiful fruits at Whole Foods, etc.). To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basi…

> It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus I would argue that there's a feedback loop in this particular case between the requirement of such effort, and the ability to generate it. The same sort of flow-state you get from e.g. playing Minecraft, also exists in the real-world equivalent of survivalist bootstrapping. Our brains were evolved to be…

Great comment. I would like to add that there is a world of difference between drudgery of tactile work and drudgery in office work.

Tactile work is more engaging and less stressful. It does not require constant multitasking or context switching. You concentrate. You also build up a certain skill at it, which allows you to feel good about what you're doing. (I.e. you go from just making nails to making good mails quickly.)

In many ways I find low-level manual tasks to feel more like "creative" office work.

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#53

Post by ars »

turar wrote: post #43
grecy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Australian, and have gone through ~7 years of paperwork to become an Canadian Permanent Resident. I have another ~5 years for citizenship, which I'm working towards because Canada really is that awesome :) I'm sure there are places equally as stunning in the Northern European countries.

Doesn't Australia have its own vast remote wilderness? Or is freezing cold preferable to scorching hot?

> Or is freezing cold preferable to scorching hot?

I think so. It seems much easier to build things to handle the cold vs handle the heat.

You really just need fuel and insulation (for you and the house), and you can be quite comfortable.

Scorching heat though - there's really not a whole lot you can do except find shade and not move.

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#54

Post by AnimalMuppet »

codingdave wrote: post #36
zardo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like an interesting communinity, where do you live?

Central Utah - quite a few small family/hobby farms, but also I-15 comes down through Salt Lake and Provo, so there is a strand of civilization (jobs, people, etc) along the interstate south of Provo that makes the small towns be a little more suburban than you might expect. And many of us have quite decent internet connectivity - my town in particular has its own municipal network, currently at 120MB, and they are u…

Would you be more specific? What town are you in?

How much land do you have? Do you have water rights? If so, how hard/expensive were they to get?

What do you grow? Do you grow just for your own use, or do you sell some?

Do you do contract programming, or do you work for a single company? If for a company, how hard was it to get that set up?

How often do you go into the big city (Provo/SLC)? For what?

What's the biggest drawback (to you) of living this way?

Feel free to not answer any of this that you feel is too intrusive...

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#55

Post by Zach_the_Lizard »

Retric wrote: post #51
OneOneOneOne wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right on. When considering lifestyle choices I ask myself how many people could live the same way. If it turns out to be a small minority before collapse, I reject it as a path for myself. To me off grid lifestyle seems a retreat from the goods of society without a commensurate benefit to self and others. As an art movement or experiment I say fine.

I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US population without many issues. Web + FedEx means a lot of jobs can be done remotely. Consider plenty of teachers work remotely even if most people think of it as a face to face job. Even some doctors have started to work remotely let alone the classic 9/5 office worker. Sure, city's are a far more efficient use of land and energy, but at least i…

>I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US population without many issues.

As you spread out the population, the cost of FedEx deliveries is going to grow. Now you can drop off goods in a city via a highly efficient train, have that switched to a truck, and have it delivered to the end customer.

If everyone is off the grid in the wilderness, that train becomes a lot less useful to deliver goods. Now you've got to reach a larger area to serve the same number of people.

> Web + Fedex means a lot of jobs can be done remotely

A lot of jobs can be done remotely, but that doesn't mean they could be done remotely without cost. Many people are less efficient when working remotely. I find communication to be much harder when remote than when in person, especially as issues get more complex.

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#56

Post by bch »

grecy wrote: post #28

If anyone is interested in this way of life, I suggest moving North. It's extremely beautiful and there are way less people. I moved to the Yukon 4 years ago, and a massive number of people live in this way. I.e. work less, own less, have way more time and live how you want. Hunt, fish, grow your own food, chop your own wood, and you can live a great life only working 20-50% time. Also there are hardly any rules up h…

Where in Yukon are you living ? I presume not in Whitehorse.

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#57

Post by Retric »

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #55
Retric wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US population without many issues. Web + FedEx means a lot of jobs can be done remotely. Consider plenty of teachers work remotely even if most people think of it as a face to face job. Even some doctors have started to work remotely let alone the classic 9/5 office worker. Sure, city's are a far more efficient use of land and energy, but at least i…

>I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US population without many issues. As you spread out the population, the cost of FedEx deliveries is going to grow. Now you can drop off goods in a city via a highly efficient train, have that switched to a truck, and have it delivered to the end customer. If everyone is off the grid in the wilderness, that train becomes a lot less useful to delive…

FedEx works because people near you also need packages. The more packages they ship the more efficient they become.

Also, the US population density is ~100 people per square mile so chances are good someone within 1 mile of you also needs a package today. Sure, it's cheaper for them to drop off 10 packages at the same apartment complex, but even fairly remote areas can be surprisingly profitable.

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#58

Post by tacostakohashi »

marricks wrote: post #49
codingdave wrote: post #12

There are also middle grounds you can take. I, and other people in my area, live on homesteads, doing our organic / permaculture farming thing, growing our own food, expanding our solar arrays... while also having a good internet connection and a grid-tie so we can do our coding day jobs for part of the day, pay our bills, then shut down and spend the rest of our time in a more disconnected state. I wish I could disc…

Do you have any more info on this type of existence or communities which have this? As a vegan, programmer, and someone very interested in leaving in nature and off the grid this sound like a sort of unicorn heavenly existence that only existed in 21st century fairy tales.

I think you might mean "tales".

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#59

Post by VLM »

ecobiker wrote: post #17

(Disclaimer: Slightly off-topic. Also, it's not my intention to belittle their lifestyle. I hope I don't come across that way.) Some of the things they need even in this disconnected lifestyle - like the mobile home, laptops, books, solar panels, batteries and even the slippers have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere. The idea of civilization to me is to take advantage of these specialists who are really…

You can live disconnected, while still participating occasionally in the labor market.

Lifetime jobs at a single employer died in roughly my grandpa's generation. And I'm not that young. My father went into semi-retirement in the 90s and he RVed roughly all summer and due to lack of connectivity technology at that time, he only contracted in the winter unless it was an emergency (charged higher rate!). RV life is a lot simpler with a house and mailing address. I spent a lot of time in the 90s and 00s picking up my parent's mail and generally keeping an eye on their house, which wasn't so bad because they lived kinda between my house and my work at that time, once I had kids it was more of a hassle but I still made the time. I remember how creepy it was watching 9/11 coverage on their big TV when they were in some campground a thousand miles away, wondering if this is "the big one" and should they be packing up to come here or should I be packing up to join them?! Also when you get too old/sick you just move back into the house permanently, or take shorter RV trips anyway.

Anyway, in summary, a home base strategy with "far less than full time employment" works pretty well, and if you're going to have "far less than full time employment" you need to do something with your spare time between work, and some folks like to travel and camp in their extensive spare time. So you end up with people disconnected and wandering the earth, most of the time, yet occasionally slaving away 9-5. For my dad it was voluntary in a semi-retired state of being, but mere education and talent do not guarantee employment for anyone, so I'm sure for some its involuntary. I suspect most of humanity in the history of our species never had a job, or never had a 9-5 job, they had a life instead.

My grandfather never completely stopped working into his 80s... I don't have any elderly role model to show me how to retire and do nothing. Personally when I retire I'm going back for the chemistry degree I always wanted and who cares if there's no jobs... after all, I'm already retired!

Re: Off the Grid, but Still Online

#60

Post by pbhjpbhj »

marricks wrote: post #49
codingdave wrote: post #12

There are also middle grounds you can take. I, and other people in my area, live on homesteads, doing our organic / permaculture farming thing, growing our own food, expanding our solar arrays... while also having a good internet connection and a grid-tie so we can do our coding day jobs for part of the day, pay our bills, then shut down and spend the rest of our time in a more disconnected state. I wish I could disc…

Do you have any more info on this type of existence or communities which have this? As a vegan, programmer, and someone very interested in leaving in nature and off the grid this sound like a sort of unicorn heavenly existence that only existed in 21st century fairy tales.

You probably want to look at "intentional community" - the general name given to [small] communities established around common interests, predominantly involving an element of permaculture (see eg permies.com).
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