Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department • Hacker News Board

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#231

Post by thatswrong0 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 5:32 PM UTC

ytinifx wrote: post #142

principal0 wrote: post #136

This is ludicrous - I was taught by Professor Ogus, and he had an excellent grasp of didactic techniques. He dedicated a large amount of time to having me come in during office hours so I could do a mock lecture before it was actually delivered, and I could compare notes when he delivered his. Yes, he was exacting and demanding, but it made me a better student. The fact that a lecturer with low standards happens to b…

100% agree. Others posting regarding this issue have no idea about any facts in this issue. The much more plausible reality is, this guy didn't get an extension as a lecturer and is butthurt and attacking the math department which he believes to be hiding evidence about his "amazing teaching prowess" and is getting rid of him because everyone wants to take his class instead of from full time faculty. Seems to me like…

> It is completely over the top to become suicidally depressed because

Holy shit, are you a robot? Are you really just going to trivialize his depression? Just think about the kind of person you are for a second. To me, you have absolutely no credibility if you can't conjure up an ounce of sympathy for the guy.

But I guess that lines up with the fact that you support the Mathematics department here. Having gone to Berkeley and experienced the mediocrity of STEM education there, I have no idea how you can be on their side.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#232

Post by retbull » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:32 PM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #206

moron4hire wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would make sense as a counter argument if his students who took Math 1A from him didn't also do better on other math courses than students who took Math 1A from other professors.

There are often very big challenges in the freshman courses. The case I'm most familiar with is the calculus courses (in undergrad I was an engineering and mathematics dual major so I had to figure out how to splice in the coursework and petition to get some courses substituted for others etc). There is a lot of pressure on the non-majors course to deemphasize the mechanics of calculation and move toward theory and r…

You still didn't refute that his students are doing better in their later classes. If your complaint is lack of foundation what is causing his students to do better?

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#233

Post by retbull » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:36 PM UTC

zhte415 wrote: post #199

philip1209 wrote: post #78

I'm not associated with UC Berkeley, but I have been involved in a lot of campus politics in the past. Because I see many alumni commenting here about the effectiveness of this lecturer, I offer a suggestion: Give a restricted gift to the university. Earmark it for something like the salary or research of Dr. Coward. If they want to play politics, you can too and restrict that your donations are tied to his continued…

This sounds like a terrible idea that can be easily abused. To distill, it amounts to 'get this donation because I'm happy with your work' which is great, until incentives get involved. A parent giving an incentive? A student from a wealthy family giving a kick-back as preferential treatment has been given to them to start a research career? Following a research interest and de-prioritising others? The conflicts of i…

It is already possible. Doing this doesn't make it more or less likely to be abused.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#234

Post by robwilliams » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:45 PM UTC

brianchu wrote: post #73

Gatsky wrote: post #45

Classic Sayre's Law: "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre's_law

I think the stakes are quite high. If he is truly a superior lecturer, at stake is the calculus education of over 800 students per year at one of the top schools in the nation, many of whom will be future scientists and engineers.

The stakes are perceived as low because it's not a life-or-death decision and nobody but math students at a single school care about it.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#235

Post by jongraehl » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

akjj wrote: post #212

Let me offer up another version of Dr. Coward's story: An employee is hired and does his job brilliantly in some aspects and along some metrics, but his employer has complaints in other areas, which are hard to read since we haven't heard their side. These issues are brought up with the employee in writing multiple times over the course of a year: September 2013, April 2014, and November 2014. Apparently, the employe…

My read: math teaching @Berkeley is in fact horrible and this offended him. He was happy to shame the incumbents and refuse to submit to mediocrity. Naturally he'd prefer to keep his job and reform by example, but his compensation for being fired is that he can righteously expose the corruption on evidence of his firing (and knowing he had this leverage is why he was so uncompromising in pursuing good teaching).

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#236

Post by jongraehl » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

akjj wrote: post #212

Let me offer up another version of Dr. Coward's story: An employee is hired and does his job brilliantly in some aspects and along some metrics, but his employer has complaints in other areas, which are hard to read since we haven't heard their side. These issues are brought up with the employee in writing multiple times over the course of a year: September 2013, April 2014, and November 2014. Apparently, the employe…

My read: math teaching @Berkeley is in fact horrible and this offended him. He was happy to shame the incumbents and refuse to submit to mediocrity. Naturally he'd prefer to keep his job and reform by example, but his compensation for being fired is that he can righteously expose the corruption on evidence of his firing (and knowing he had this leverage is why he was so uncompromising in pursuing good teaching).

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#237

Post by selimthegrim » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

retbull wrote: post #232

fluidcruft wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are often very big challenges in the freshman courses. The case I'm most familiar with is the calculus courses (in undergrad I was an engineering and mathematics dual major so I had to figure out how to splice in the coursework and petition to get some courses substituted for others etc). There is a lot of pressure on the non-majors course to deemphasize the mechanics of calculation and move toward theory and r…

You still didn't refute that his students are doing better in their later classes. If your complaint is lack of foundation what is causing his students to do better?

_Which_ later classes though? If you disaggregate an engineering set of them might they be doing worse masked by the softballs the majority are taking?

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#238

Post by joshAg » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 8:28 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #113

joshAg wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lecturers are Cal's version of adjunt professors. Just like how GSIs are Cal's version of TAs.

That's definitely not true in the CS department, at the very least. Lecturers in the CS department can get "security of employment" which is tenure in everything but name and, while I was there, most of the intro courses and some advanced undergraduate courses were taught by lecturers like that. Of course, the CS department is in a different college (Engineering), has a different culture and, probably, way more fundi…

While EECS treats its lecturers well, they are still essentially adjuncts. Lecturer SOE is very different from just lecturer, because as you pointed out they have tenure. From what I can tell of my time there, the EECS department very much appreciates good/great Lecturers SOE teaching the lower div classes. Apparently the math departmnet does not.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#239

Post by studentrob » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #228

studentrob wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, let us know what she says! Even with more transparent reporting, it'd still be possible in some cases to hide where the money is really going. There could have already been a planned budget increase, for example. Ultimately it just comes down to trust. If I don't trust the wider institution, I will not donate to a subsidiary. And with more and more schools operating like businesses these days, it's hard to know…

Basically, she says nobody involved would be likely to touch such a time-bomb of a gift with a ten-foot pole. It's important to consider that academic departments are separate from finance offices, which themselves are also separate from development offices. The finance office determines how much money every academic department will receive, then turns around and tells the development office they need to raise that m…

Wow looks like you got a lengthy reply. Thanks for sharing!

So donations marked for expendables such as pizza or classroom costs are easily fungible. It is a one off cost that won't be compared year over year.

Interesting viewpoint that small earmarked donations toward non-expendables such as salaries are viewed as time bombs. Sounds to me like acquiring fungible funds is pretty common and a major goal of finance and development offices. That is, they want to encourage people to give unrestricted money. They don't want donations from people who don't trust the organization as a whole. Sounds reasonable.

Re: Blowing the Whistle on the UC Berkeley Mathematics Department

#240

Post by principal0 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 10:02 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #138

principal0 wrote: post #136

This is ludicrous - I was taught by Professor Ogus, and he had an excellent grasp of didactic techniques. He dedicated a large amount of time to having me come in during office hours so I could do a mock lecture before it was actually delivered, and I could compare notes when he delivered his. Yes, he was exacting and demanding, but it made me a better student. The fact that a lecturer with low standards happens to b…

I'm still learning mathematics. I'm in fact largely teaching myself. I can assure you, though, that a Fields medalist is not required to teach me Differential Calculus (Math1A). In fact, I'd prefer it if they didn't.

Likely you don't care because you have no intention of pursuing mathematics in a research capacity at any point. However part of the experience for those who care more about math than an easy "A" is ensuring you have access to amazing role models early on. People who take an interest in you, and spend some of their incredibly valuable time shepherding you through a unique, beautiful field.

Where is your sense of wonder, or your desire to know these exceptional people while observing how they think? How myopic. If you're at Berkeley, you're wasting your time being bitter and hopefully you'll transfer. That isn't a personal criticism, so much as recognizing that a top research university isn't for everyone, and the unique resources and access it provides should be given great weight or you shouldn't be using them.

Professor Ogus cared, as did almost all of my professors. I was amazed I could take classes and spend time with people who are shaping our understanding of mathematics. It's the same shock you have when you go to the SFMoMA and realize that some of the greatest post-Impressionist works in the world are sitting entirely unprotected in front of you. It impacted me, it impacted the way I think, and I will always value what they did for me. An adjunct simply can't provide that experience, and if you're just looking to pass Math 1A go to a community college for those credits. If you want to make a mark and know some of the brightest minds of our age, go to Berkeley.