How I Teach Gerrymandering • Hacker News Board

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#11

Post by bonzini » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:55 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #6

aidos wrote: post #4

I'd heard the term before but never looked into it – it was useful to have something to prompt me (partially because this article doesn't even mention what it is). It's when the government manipulates electorates to increase their chances of being re-elected. As someone in the UK this is something I've wondered about a lot over the last year. If you don't follow UK politics, we have a government that was elected with…

UK election outcomes have nothing to do with gerrymandering and everything to do with being a multi-party democracy using a FPTP electoral system, which tends to boost the representation of leading parties at the expense of smaller parties. Indeed, you'd actually need gerrymandering for such a system to have any hope of returning seats broadly in proportion to vote share. (the conspiracy theory about disenfranchiseme…

> UK election outcomes have nothing to do with gerrymandering and everything to do with

> being a multi-party democracy using a FPTP electoral system, which tends to boost

> the representation of leading parties at the expense of smaller parties.

More precisely, FPTP tends to boost the representation of leading national _and local_ parties (the latter being best exemplified by the SNP) at the expense of smaller national parties. Small local parties are usually toast anyway even in proportional systems due to thresholds.

During the 2015 elections the system worked exactly as designed, by favoring parties that are strong in one or more nations of the UK at the expense of parties that are a bit meh in all of them.

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#12

Post by aidos » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:00 PM UTC

Siecje wrote: post #5

aidos wrote: post #4

I'd heard the term before but never looked into it – it was useful to have something to prompt me (partially because this article doesn't even mention what it is). It's when the government manipulates electorates to increase their chances of being re-elected. As someone in the UK this is something I've wondered about a lot over the last year. If you don't follow UK politics, we have a government that was elected with…

Here is a short CGP Grey video on Gerrymandering https://youtu.be/Mky11UJb9AY

Good video. Thanks!

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#13

Post by aidos » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:12 PM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #11

notahacker wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK election outcomes have nothing to do with gerrymandering and everything to do with being a multi-party democracy using a FPTP electoral system, which tends to boost the representation of leading parties at the expense of smaller parties. Indeed, you'd actually need gerrymandering for such a system to have any hope of returning seats broadly in proportion to vote share. (the conspiracy theory about disenfranchiseme…

> UK election outcomes have nothing to do with gerrymandering and everything to do with > being a multi-party democracy using a FPTP electoral system, which tends to boost > the representation of leading parties at the expense of smaller parties. More precisely, FPTP tends to boost the representation of leading national _and local_ parties (the latter being best exemplified by the SNP) at the expense of smaller natio…

FPTP is heavily biased though - you end up in a situation where there's little point voting the way you want, because it won't be effective.

Take the Greens, 3.8% of the vote with 0.15% of the final representation. And I bet that 3.8% would actually have been higher if people had felt like they wouldn't be throwing away their vote.

I understand your sentiment, but I think "bit meh" is maybe a little uncharitable. Half of my voting life has been in NZ (mixed member proportional) and the other half in the UK (FPTP) – so I have a reasonable understanding of the drawbacks of the systems.

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#14

Post by kgreene2 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:18 PM UTC

To anyone interested in the subject, I'd strongly recommend playing the Redistricting Game [0] which takes you through many of the processes outlined in the article

[0] - http://www.redistrictinggame.org/

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#15

Post by aidos » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:24 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #6

aidos wrote: post #4

I'd heard the term before but never looked into it – it was useful to have something to prompt me (partially because this article doesn't even mention what it is). It's when the government manipulates electorates to increase their chances of being re-elected. As someone in the UK this is something I've wondered about a lot over the last year. If you don't follow UK politics, we have a government that was elected with…

UK election outcomes have nothing to do with gerrymandering and everything to do with being a multi-party democracy using a FPTP electoral system, which tends to boost the representation of leading parties at the expense of smaller parties. Indeed, you'd actually need gerrymandering for such a system to have any hope of returning seats broadly in proportion to vote share. (the conspiracy theory about disenfranchiseme…

The moment I finished my comment I actually thought to myself - "hmmm, FPTP is the problem here" (which I was saying even well before the last election).

The gerrymandering is interesting though, and there's another video link in this thread that explains how you can use it to try to fix this issue (as you said).

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#16

Post by narcissus » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:30 PM UTC

Siecje wrote: post #5

aidos wrote: post #4

I'd heard the term before but never looked into it – it was useful to have something to prompt me (partially because this article doesn't even mention what it is). It's when the government manipulates electorates to increase their chances of being re-elected. As someone in the UK this is something I've wondered about a lot over the last year. If you don't follow UK politics, we have a government that was elected with…

Here is a short CGP Grey video on Gerrymandering https://youtu.be/Mky11UJb9AY

The entire "Politics in the Animal Kingdom" series is great, I think... http://www.cgpgrey.com/politics-in-the-animal-kingdom/

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#17

Post by dheera » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:32 PM UTC

Alternatively, by switching to popular vote, this problem, and many other problems could be avoided entirely. Above all things, is it fair that a voter in Massachusetts has exactly zero (and I mean exactly zero, not their fair 1/3.2e8 share) say over the election, while a voter in Ohio carries a lot of weight?

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#18

Post by mason240 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:39 PM UTC

aidos wrote: post #4

I'd heard the term before but never looked into it – it was useful to have something to prompt me (partially because this article doesn't even mention what it is). It's when the government manipulates electorates to increase their chances of being re-elected. As someone in the UK this is something I've wondered about a lot over the last year. If you don't follow UK politics, we have a government that was elected with…

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a manufactured issue used by people who refuse to accept election results they don't like, and they use to it delegitimize the outcome.

You'll find that the same people who go on about it are the same people who think George W Bush stole the 2000 election.

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#19

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

mason240 wrote: post #18

aidos wrote: post #4

I'd heard the term before but never looked into it – it was useful to have something to prompt me (partially because this article doesn't even mention what it is). It's when the government manipulates electorates to increase their chances of being re-elected. As someone in the UK this is something I've wondered about a lot over the last year. If you don't follow UK politics, we have a government that was elected with…

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a manufactured issue used by people who refuse to accept election results they don't like, and they use to it delegitimize the outcome. You'll find that the same people who go on about it are the same people who think George W Bush stole the 2000 election.

My experience is that people go on about it all across the spectrum, including lots of people who not only don't think George W. Bush did steal the 2000 election, but who would have thought it was a good and justified thing if he had.

Gerrymandering is a real issue and a real thing that really effects election results, and, simultaneously, an effective distraction from the more serious problem of representation caused by FPTP in single-member districts. So, not only is it a popular target of the disaffected, its something the disaffected are redirected to vent their anger at by both sides of the partisan duopoly in different times and places, because while it is a real thing, none of the methods used to attack it fundamentally change the structures reinforcing the partisan duopoly, and in any given condition certain of the methods for fighting it will reinforce the position of one side or the other of that duopoly against the other within the basic duopoly-reinforcing structure.

Re: How I Teach Gerrymandering

#20

Post by meric » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:57 PM UTC

gortok wrote: post #10

This is a great way to teach gerrymandering. It also illustrates the problem with 'Party X is evil, Party Y is not.' Political parties (stripping away all else) are groups of people who identify with one another. Take that one step further, and they're groups of people that identify with one another and believe their group is the best one to represent the whole . Or, if you are less idealistic, they want to win (I su…

Other ways: Limit the proportion of seats a party can contest to 50% so no party can control the government and will depend on other parties. Force each party to setup a voting platform so citizens in the district can vote bindingly on individual bills. The district will have two votes, one is the representative and the other is proportional vote depending on how many citizens in that district voting for that specific bill. (Can be partial vote e.g 63%)