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The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#41

Historical note: it needs to be remembered that the allies did a great disservice to Poland after the war. The war was ostensibly started over Poland, the allies promised to liberate it, and in the end it was given out as spoils of the conflict.

The Polish Question was a very ugly, messy bit of the war and the peace that followed. Somewhat similar to Yugoslavia, there were divisions within the Polish Resistance organizations between those supporting the government-in-exile in London, and the pro-Soviet faction. One reason that the Red Army sat on its hands during the Warsaw Uprising was that the Polish forces involved were primarily drawn from the London-leaning Home Army. In other cases, members of the Home Army were offered the "choice" of joining the Red Army or being sent to labor camps.

One interesting what-if? to consider is what might have happened had Roosevelt lived to see the end of the war, and the various treaties and conference (notably the Potsdam Conference), instead of the inexperienced Truman.

One of the better treatments of the final days of WW2, and the tensions between the western Allies and the Soviets over Poland is http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-100-Days-Controversial/dp/081...

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#42
post #29

Historical note: it needs to be remembered that the allies did a great disservice to Poland after the war. The war was ostensibly started over Poland, the allies promised to liberate it, and in the end it was given out as spoils of the conflict.

Technically the Soviet Union was one of the allies, and if you asked the Soviet Union they would say they "liberated" Poland. If you remember, there was a large conflict between the US and the Soviets for much of the 20th century over exactly these types of claims.

I always have a problem with this argument, because the war started by both Germany and Russia invading Poland. Just because things went sour between them and in the end Russia helped defeat the nazis doesn't mean that the act of giving Poland away to the Soviet Union wasn't any less disappointing.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#43
Semi-related. If you ever visit Warsaw (Poland). I highly recommend museum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POLIN_Museum_of_the_History_of... http://www.polin.pl/en/

There is amazing/modern/interactive exhibition of 1000 years Jewish history in Poland. Most of it is very positive and peaceful. You are invited!

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#44
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were active resistances in most occupied countries including France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance However a big difference between occupied populations and Jews is that Germany for the most part left the occupied population alone. Yes they were still oppressed and in many cases fell into poverty however they weren't hunted down by the SS, gathered and then shipped to concentration camps, ghet…

The Polish had guns AND fought back. How did it help them? Hitler and Stalin both invaded anyway.

It's not just about winning. It's about making it as costly as possible for the other side to win. The Warsaw Uprising was a horribly costly victory for the Germans. And in the case of the Polish Jews there was no downside to fighting back.

And it's certainly not out of the question that a better armed Jewish resistance could have organized transport for a lot of Jews out of Nazi hands.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#45

Ben Carson's comments weren't in a void: it's long been an NRA hobbyhorse that the holocaust wouldn't have happened if only the Jews had guns. He's just repeating a long-stated claim. The problem is that for those events in WWII where such a claim can be tested -- for example, the Ghetto Uprising -- the claim fails miserably. In the Ghetto Uprising, the Nazis lost 300 soldiers and the Jews lost at least 13,000 people…

But significant resources were diverted. Around 2,000 Nazi soldiers were tied down by around 1,000 Jewish resistance fighters armed with ancient revolvers and molotov cocktails. And they were tied down for longer than it took the German army to conquer all of Poland and France.

Holding up 2,000 soldiers for a month isn't a big deal in the scheme of millions of soldiers. But when it's done by only 1,000 incredibly poorly armed civilians, it shows what could have been done with more and better armed civilians.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Out of the 6M Polish casualties 3M of them were Jewish These numbers don't really add up and it's the upper bound Polish historians quote. The problem is that there were roughly 3M Jews in Poland before the war and census before and after the war showed ~3,5M population drop in total. So not only 6M seems excessive but 3M seems unlikely given that this would mean that roughly every single Jew died in the result of…

Only 50,000 or so Polish Jews survived the Holocaust, the Germans have kept quite meticulous records and about 3.3M Polish Jews were killed during WW2.

If I were responsible for counting in such circumstances as they were, I'd bump up the figures to make myself look good. For the same reason communist gov in Poland diminished casualties caused by Soviet actions. Self reporting is rarely accurate.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#47
post #2

What an odd opinion piece. It seems to suggest that the Jews of Nazi occupied countries were merely missing arms in order to significantly deter the Wehrmacht that was taking on the combined forces of the Soviet, British, and US military. Yet it doesn't explain why the French people in Nazi occupied countries, who had a larger gun culture, were so (relatively) easily subdued and kept pacified. If the thesis is correc…

There were active resistances in most occupied countries including France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance However a big difference between occupied populations and Jews is that Germany for the most part left the occupied population alone. Yes they were still oppressed and in many cases fell into poverty however they weren't hunted down by the SS, gathered and then shipped to concentration camps, ghet…

If what you say is true, then that weakens the authors thesis pretty drastically.

For example, you say: "even the Jews didn't believe it until the news broke out in the final year of the war in Europe". This uprising took place almost two years before V-E day, which means the Jews in Warsaw were not aware that they were "literally" fighting for their lives. They were instead fighting for their human rights, and their way of life. (We know they were destined for extermination camps, but they didn't; if what you say is correct.)

The author also points out that the deportations were 'ostensibly for resettlement in labor camps, but almost always for extermination' and 'Often, the Judenrat was told that as long as the ghetto worked hard to produce factory goods for the Germans, the ghetto would be allowed to survive.' Thus, how did the Jews of Warsaw know that genocide was planned for them, and not, say, work camps?

If they did not know, then thesis - that weak gun laws can help prevent genocide - is actually a broader one; that weak gun laws can help prevent ghettoization, or that weak gun laws can help prevent mass deportations.

Hence if there is any lesson to be learned, it sounds like the author is arguing for the increased weaponization of the Palestinians, in order to better reach the long agreed upon two state solution.

Another issue is that you added your own qualifier; "Tribal genocide ... cannot be just as easily compared to the Holocaust."

This is a different definition of genocide than the author. Or rather, when the "International Society for the Prevention of Crime", concluded "defensive measures are the most effective means for the prevention of genocide"; did that mean genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention? I think so. While you want to exclude "tribal genocide" from that definition.

In science there is an analysis error called "p-hacking". More specifically, if the correlation across the entire data set is too weak, some people will look at a subset which has a more detectable correlation. (XKCD calls this 'Hey, look at this interesting subgroup analysis'.) The problem is, the method of subsetting should be part of the significance analysis, and by excluding it, the p-value is artificially raised.

By choosing a subset of 'genocide', you weaken the intent of the essay. You say they cannot easily be applied to tribal genocide, which opens up the possibility that the can't be used for other genocides, and especially opens up the possibility that it can't be used in the US political context.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#48
post #2

What an odd opinion piece. It seems to suggest that the Jews of Nazi occupied countries were merely missing arms in order to significantly deter the Wehrmacht that was taking on the combined forces of the Soviet, British, and US military. Yet it doesn't explain why the French people in Nazi occupied countries, who had a larger gun culture, were so (relatively) easily subdued and kept pacified. If the thesis is correc…

I think there is a pretty obvious explanation why the Jews in Warsaw fought back but the French mostly didn't. See the first chart on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims Most likely an airdrop of arms would have ended the Rwandan genocide sooner - keep in mind that the genocide only ended when armed Tutsis took over the country. This effort was certainly helped by the fact that fleeing Tutsis,…

Did the Jews in Warsaw know that they were going to be shipped to execution camps? I thought they only thought they were going to be shipped to labor camps.

If they didn't know, or weren't sure, then your explanation doesn't work. (That's not to say the desire to protect one's human rights, and way of life, isn't enough. One need only look to the Finns in the Winter War for an example of that.)

The information I found (mostly Wikipedia) is incomplete and contradictory. As there is a lot of fraudulent anti-Holocaust, anti-Jew publications on the topic, it is hard for me to get a sense of who knew what when.

Also, the German mass murders includes several million non-Jewish Slavs in Ukraine. If the Holocaust deaths help explain why the Jews in Warsaw fought back the way they did, is the Slavic response any different, and if so, why?

This lack of comparison data, when it seems like it should be both relevant and available, is why I don't regard this piece in the WaPa to be a good historical work.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#49
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was unaware of the potential political implications of this article. I'd probably not have submitted had I known that. I'm not following the election horserace, this was just an interesting historical article that came up in my feed.

It's not a bad piece of history writing. It's just going to bring out the gun-control debaters. The Warsaw Jews did pretty well, considering they had less arms and ammunition on hand than you'd find in a rural US WalMart. Victory was not an option - a year later, the considerably larger, better-equipped Warsaw Uprising failed as bloodily, when Soviet forces nearly on the outskirts of the city failed to raise a finger…

There are several different styles of history writing. One is to describe what happened. For example, there are histories of battles, and of Krakatoa, and of Newton, which follow more or less a timeline.

Another is to identify underlying patterns and trends that help understand what happened, and hopefully can be applied elsewhere. For examples, how did the introduction of light mobile guns by Gustavus Adolphus change the battlefield? Why did the explosion of Krakatoa have a big cultural impact as well as physical one? How are Newton's view on alchemy and biblical research connected to his work on physics?

The first is more descriptive, and the second is more predictive. Both are good history.

Both are scientific, but call for different sorts of research. Both require extensive literature analysis. The latter requires more work to come up with alternative hypothesis and relevant comparisons, in order to test and disprove hypotheses.

This article does both. I think it does best at the descriptive aspects of the event. But it uses a historical model that isn't well tested, but could be tested by looking towards other genocides to see if the model fits.

If the model doesn't fit in a more general sense, then in the context of US gun control laws, it's a curiosity at best, and not something that can be used in decision making.

It is trying to making that comparison, and not limit itself to the uprising, which is why I regard it as a bad piece of historical writing.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#50
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Polish had guns AND fought back. How did it help them? Hitler and Stalin both invaded anyway.

Yes they did, but again it's not the same situation exactly there were plenty of Jews that escaped the concentration camps, and later the death camps in Poland and joined the resistance but the majority of them couldn't. I made it quite clear that arming a population might not have a clear impact on the amount of deaths, but it will have a clear impact on the way they died. The Polish people didn't "had" to fight, at…

> If more Jews could revolt the final solution might not have happened, not in the way it did anyhow,

Your conclusion is a bit tautological - if things were different then they wouldn't have happened the same way.

> the Germans could only execute it because they have had very little internal and external resistance in doing so.

Jews were not the only ones being killed. Everything you say should apply to Ukraine. Quoting Wikipedia:

> The Holocaust in Ukraine took place during the occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany.[1] Between 1941 and 1945, approximately 3,000,000 Ukrainian and other non-Jewish victims were killed as part of Nazi extermination policies, along with between 850,000 - 900,000 Jews who lived in the territory of modern Ukraine.[2][3] Original plans of genocide called for the extermination of 65% of the nation's 23.2 million Ukrainians,[4][5] with the remainder of inhabitants to be treated as slaves.[6] Over 2,300,000 Ukrainians were deported to Germany for slave labor.[7] In ten years' time, the plan effectively called for the extermination, expulsion, Germanization or enslavement of most or all Ukrainians. ...

> One of Hitler's ambitions at the start of the war was to exterminate, expel, or enslave most or all Slavs from their native lands so as to make living space for German settlers. ... Total civilian losses during the war and German occupation in Ukraine are estimated at four million, including up to a million Jews who were murdered by the Einsatzgruppen and local Nazi collaborators.

> If there was a much bigger Jewish resistance and there would be revolts in every work camp, ghetto and concentration camp the Germans could possible have had to give up on their plans,

Given that millions of non-Jewish Slavs were also massacred, how much more Jewish resistance would have been needed?

And like I said, if that thesis were true, then it would seem that the best way to achieve the two state solution for Palestine is to ship a huge amount of arms to the Palestinians. If not, what is missing in the comparison?

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