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Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

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Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#21
Minnesota recently fixed this so that a criminal conviction is necessary before forfeiture, and when I texted my state representative about it, he said my state senator already has a bill for it in committee in Pennsylvania.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/05/07/m...

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#22
post #5

I'm not saying the police are right, the whole seizure thing is ridiculous, but this story is so shady. You have 11 grand in cash and want to move it from A to B. The obvious and safe way is to deposit it in a bank and get a cashier's check or do an ACH transfer. Who in their right mind would carry it with them or even worse, put it in a checked bag that airlines notoriously lose? The point of the story is valid, but…

My dad is in his seventies and an immigrant from Russia. He would absolutely do this because he never got past his distrust of banks and other major institutions, nor did he lose his tendency to transport valuables in cotton linings sewn into a suitcase or a pair of pants.

Inadvisable? Absolutely. And I'm sure there's plenty of other examples of people moving around large amounts of cash for dubious reasons. So, if they lose the cash or get robbed, some degree of "I told you so" is absolutely in order. But getting robbed by your own government should not be on the list of possible consequences of dubious (but legal) ideas.

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#23
post #5

I'm not saying the police are right, the whole seizure thing is ridiculous, but this story is so shady. You have 11 grand in cash and want to move it from A to B. The obvious and safe way is to deposit it in a bank and get a cashier's check or do an ACH transfer. Who in their right mind would carry it with them or even worse, put it in a checked bag that airlines notoriously lose? The point of the story is valid, but…

You are assuming in this case that the young man in this case has access to the banking tools that you do, which is a big assumption. Poor and minority populations are less likely to have bank accounts, and more likely to keep their savings in cash[1]. Combine that with the fact that he was more likely to be stopped for being black in the first place and you have a recipe for abuse.

1. https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/2012_unbankedreport.pdf...

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#24
post #5

I'm not saying the police are right, the whole seizure thing is ridiculous, but this story is so shady. You have 11 grand in cash and want to move it from A to B. The obvious and safe way is to deposit it in a bank and get a cashier's check or do an ACH transfer. Who in their right mind would carry it with them or even worse, put it in a checked bag that airlines notoriously lose? The point of the story is valid, but…

There is nothing illegal about doing it so it shouldn't be anyones business. Who in their right mind? A farmer or two going to buy some equipment, me paying my first year of college, and plenty of folks buying cars. ACH transfer and cashier checks cost money, and hell, even Walmart won't cash a cashier check.

Your attitude towards other people's business offends me about as much as the actual seizure. Its attitudes like this that make the US more dangerous since "Shady" is the same reason SWAT teams are used to throw flash bangs in houses and server warrants. That attitude escalates the danger to us all.

What's wrong with "untraceable"? How is it anyones business what anyone does with their money unless they are actually committing a criminal activity or defrauding someone? If those were happening and charges were brought and a guilty conviction happens, then fine seize the money, but not until.

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#25
For those who didn't RTFA, he carried his life savings with him in cash. We've seen several stories like this: person has $xx,xxx in cash on them like that's just a normal thing to do. Bad thing happens. Person is incredulous. No one thinks they have any culpability for opting to carry $10k+ in cash over vastly safer and free alternatives.

That doesn't excuse the seizure, but I don't see how it's worth our time to get mad about people experiencing bad outcomes when they take stupid risks.

There are many other examples that make a better case against civil asset forfeiture.

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#26
post #5

I'm not saying the police are right, the whole seizure thing is ridiculous, but this story is so shady. You have 11 grand in cash and want to move it from A to B. The obvious and safe way is to deposit it in a bank and get a cashier's check or do an ACH transfer. Who in their right mind would carry it with them or even worse, put it in a checked bag that airlines notoriously lose? The point of the story is valid, but…

You are assuming in this case that the young man in this case has access to the banking tools that you do, which is a big assumption. Poor and minority populations are less likely to have bank accounts, and more likely to keep their savings in cash[1]. Combine that with the fact that he was more likely to be stopped for being black in the first place and you have a recipe for abuse. 1. https://www.fdic.gov/households…

Yep. Go to the local Walmart and see how many people use their check cashing, money orders, bill paying, and debit cards. Heck, I use one of their Bluebird AmeEx cards for a lot of online bills. Its more convenient than my bank to throw a twenty on to pay for Netflix.

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who in their right mind would do thing X where thing X is risky because of an out-of-control state agency. Someone who is blissfully unaware of how out of control the state agency is, probably.

He said it was risky because airlines lose bags. He's right--doing that is insane.

You make the assumption that he had the financial instruments to make other arraignments. wadetandy pointed out a report that shows a lot of people don't.

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#29
post #10
post #2

I still don't understand why this kind of thing has not yet led to violence. Edit: > Originally, it was designed for situations in which the court would not have jurisdiction over the person, so it's an action on the property itself. Oh, interesting. So it is a bug in the law itself that nobody has any interest in fixing; but people who've already been robbed at gunpoint.

Because the government and businesses have slowly but surely been eroding the role of cash in our lives. Most people use checks or credit cards for big purchases. Most people are paid by check, and the exceptions are usually near minimum wage. Nobody does big transactions in cash anymore -- even if you want to pay tens or hundreds of thousands in cash for a car, a house, or college tuition, if you show up with a brie…

I agree with your conclusion - but your premise of conspiracy is wrong.

Using virtual Money is obviously much better than paper money. The difference is should it be centralized or de-centralized and anonymous ?

The paradoxical economic problem with decentralized money is that the govt has no control over it. Which means during bad time its going to be very difficult for the govt to enact changes. We learnt it the hard way During the great depression when money was pegged to gold and the govt was unable to use inflation to restart the economy.

Its a deep economical problem for which there is no known theoretical solution. Is it possible to have a decentralized monetary system that can also be controlled by a representive govt ?

Re: Why police could seize a college student's life savings without charging him

#30

For those who didn't RTFA, he carried his life savings with him in cash . We've seen several stories like this: person has $xx,xxx in cash on them like that's just a normal thing to do. Bad thing happens. Person is incredulous. No one thinks they have any culpability for opting to carry $10k+ in cash over vastly safer and free alternatives. That doesn't excuse the seizure, but I don't see how it's worth our time to g…

You're correct that it is not wise to carry that much cash. However, we are allowed to do it. We are allowed to carry cash on us. I personally wouldn't do it unless I didn't have any other options, but for someone to have their money taken from them without evidence that it was derived from criminal activity is really messed up. And this isn't the first time that civil forfeiture has been used to deprive law abiding citizens of their property.
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