The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared • Hacker News Board

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#121

Post by crdoconnor » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 8:32 AM UTC

joesmo wrote: post #31

What are the chances that this will not be passed by congress? Is there enough animosity that might stop this? I'm really hoping for some serious partisan bickering and ridiculous Obama hate here or is this treaty so horrible (yes it is) that our representatives intend to push it through no matter what?

This can be used to rile up protest against it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-lux/slavery-really_b_7462...

This in particular does not go down at all well with the strongly religious, even the religious right. So far it's mostly escaped their notice, however.

I have a feeling that if enough people call their Congresspeople and asking why they are voting for slavery and the destruction of American sovereignty some of them will get cold feet. Bonus points if the congressperson purports to be religious themselves.

For once, if you're in a flyover state, you can actually do something to help.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#122

Post by res0nat0r » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 8:36 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #105

The thing I find most galling about this is not merely what it contains. It is an awful document, with horrible policy, yes. But, what is most disgusting is that we had to learn of how bad it is from leaked documents . The leadership in many nations (not just in one nation, this is effectively a conspiracy at the highest levels of several nations, most egregiously the US) supported the TPP, lobbied for the TPP on beh…

I thought that this whole "secret" thing has been explained ad naueum here and on reddit already. It is t secret before it becomes law, or is going to get snuck in under the radar. It will be open for review before it is voted on.

Also you don't give away your bargaining wants to your competitors before you sign a contract, kind of like how you don't go to a job interview and tell them out of the gate the exact minimum amount you'd be willing to work for. Thus, the wants of each party are kept to themselves before a final draft.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#123

Post by Natanael_L » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:00 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #122

SwellJoe wrote: post #105

The thing I find most galling about this is not merely what it contains. It is an awful document, with horrible policy, yes. But, what is most disgusting is that we had to learn of how bad it is from leaked documents . The leadership in many nations (not just in one nation, this is effectively a conspiracy at the highest levels of several nations, most egregiously the US) supported the TPP, lobbied for the TPP on beh…

I thought that this whole "secret" thing has been explained ad naueum here and on reddit already. It is t secret before it becomes law, or is going to get snuck in under the radar. It will be open for review before it is voted on. Also you don't give away your bargaining wants to your competitors before you sign a contract, kind of like how you don't go to a job interview and tell them out of the gate the exact minim…

Doesn't make it acceptable. Just because the logic makes sense in one context, we don't actually have to accept the entire premise of that context.

The list of interested parties let in by the gatekeepers is all by itself horribly flawed. Then there's questions about accountability, secretly planned PR campaigns and whatnot.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#124

Post by yrro » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:00 AM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #65

yrro wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incredible. Reading the details of the cases listed on that site makes me feel sick. And there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

Those pre-TPP cases are nothing compared to the future combined scope of TPP (Pacific), TTIP (Europe) and RCEP (China, Korea, India, and other Asian countries). Never say there is nothing you can do. Tell other people about ISDS. Share the videos [1][2][3][4]. Jon Oliver's video [4] about the Philip Morris tobacco ISDS lawsuit against Australia (for brown paper packaging) caused such an outcry that TPP negotiators we…

Whenever I think about this for more than a passing moment I just become so scared and angry. How the fuck is a company able to take a country to court over a public health measure? Who the fuck voted for the evil bastards who made that possible? How do they fucking live with themselves?

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#125

Post by walterbell » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #110

EdSharkey wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your vision of the future sounds like hell to me! It's sortof like gun control ... only the bad guys will have access to development rigs.

Yes. It terrifies me. But that's exactly what we'll have if we actually get "programmer professionalization". This is a part of the War on General Purpose Computing; on one hand, as software runs more and more life-critical systems like cars or energy infrastructure, you see a push from both security professionals and big companies towards turning programming into real engineering discipline; on the other hand, you h…

https://github.com/linuxfoundation/cii-best-practices-badge/...

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#126

Post by Natanael_L » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:08 AM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #37

To me, code is much more of a long term threat to the power structure than intellectual property theft is. I'm wondering how long before we have government-sanctioned libraries, languages, and chipsets that we may develop for. I see this TPP as power consolidating ahead of any looming citizen revolt in order to chop it off at the knees. It's very weird and awesome to watch. I do chuckle about all this though because…

I mostly agree, in the long term. There's no point in fighting if you'll need to replace what you're fighting with something more resilient, as merely building it and showing it is better can be a far more effective way of winning, by deprecating the entire system.

That's the approach taken by Bitcoin - why attack the banks when we can circumvent them? We can build what we need and ignore the old system. No need to get down to the level of kindergarten kids throwing mud. Do better instead.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#127

Post by Natanael_L » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:15 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #90

EdSharkey wrote: post #37

To me, code is much more of a long term threat to the power structure than intellectual property theft is. I'm wondering how long before we have government-sanctioned libraries, languages, and chipsets that we may develop for. I see this TPP as power consolidating ahead of any looming citizen revolt in order to chop it off at the knees. It's very weird and awesome to watch. I do chuckle about all this though because…

Time's a wastin' ;) I think that we need something like IPFS, which connects via covert channels, and is fully deniable. With ubiquitous HD video, download bandwidth would be trivial, even with ~1% signal/carrier. Upload bandwidth would be harder to hide.

We need fully open high bandwidth radio protocols for creating useful mesh networks (MU-MIMO tech in hardware you don't need licensing for), using protocols like CJDNS, anonymization like I2P, Tahoe-LAFS and IPFS for distribution and management of data, etc...

And we really need better crypto key management. Keybase.io, Namecoin, OpenKeychain, Yubikey NEO, etc, they all contribute to part of the solution, but we need something more comprehensive.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#128

Post by Natanael_L » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:19 AM UTC

laichzeit0 wrote: post #116

striking wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means people are so tired of listening to self-interested politicians toe the party line that they're willing to elect a candidate solely based on how crazy his ideas are and how much he won't backpedal on them, even in the face of adversity. In terms of fearless leaders, he definitely is one. Of course, I also think his ideas are mostly inane and that within fifteen minutes of his inauguration he would have alrea…

Excuse my ignorance as I'm not American and perhaps miss all the nuances. - Wants to stop illegal immigration. Not immigration. Only illegal. i.e. people not paying taxes but living there undocumented - Non-citizens giving birth in USA and then automatically the baby is USA's problem until it dies - Tax reform that wants to stop corporate inversion and bring money back to USA (Google, Apple, etc.) - Wants a more comp…

Because of the how and why

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#129

Post by walterbell » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:28 AM UTC

Asbostos wrote: post #87

DanBC wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheaper products come with worker exploitation.

That implies the whole concept of developing nations is bad and we should try to prevent it. All of them have worker exploitation to some extent. Don't forget even exploited workers still choose where to work. They're not slaves. Furthermore, tariffs aren't introduced to protect foreign workers. That really isn't the reason for tariffs.

Developing nations are not a "concept". See the history of colonialism. Do not fall prey to the prisoners dilemma fallacy of "competition" between countries with dramatically different labor standards. Humans can engage in a race to the top or a race to the bottom. The choice is ours.

From http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0PJ00F20150709?...

"The United States is upgrading Malaysia from the lowest tier on its list of worst human trafficking centers ... The upgrade follows international scrutiny and outcry over Malaysian efforts to combat human trafficking after the discovery this year of scores of graves in people-smuggling camps near its northern border with Thailand.

Malaysia has an estimated 2 million illegal migrant laborers, many of whom work in conditions of forced labor under employers and recruitment companies in sectors ranging from electronics to palm oil to domestic service."

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#130

Post by teekert » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:33 AM UTC

This is very IT focused, (not strange for an HN post) but I am also very curious about the standards that are altered for food safety. This is mainly important for Europe which was about to ban a lot of endrocrine disruptive pesticides but didn't, allegedly due to TTIP.

http://www.ibtimes.com/ttip-controversy-us-officials-industr...

http://www.chemtrust.org.uk/the-eu-claims-that-ttip-wont-red...