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81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

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Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#131

Post by murbard2 »

URSpider94 wrote: post #106
murbard2 wrote: post #37

The lessons is not to "be wary of scammers" or "hack your phone"... That's totally missing the crux of the scam. The lesson is that, as you approach old age, and if at all possible, you should give a trusted relative or close friend a durable power of attorney over your finances. In addition, (or as a second best), put your money in an irrevocable living trust assigning yourself as a beneficiary, and laying out stric…

The problem is that many senior citizens, especially men, will fight tooth and nail against this. They have a self-image problem. They can not see themselves as frail and vulnerable. I lived through this with first my grandfather, then my grandmother.

Sadly yes. That's why I'm not suggesting you ask your older relatives to do it. If you have to ask, it's too late. My point is that you should prepare yourself mentally for doing it later in life and be cool with it.

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#132

Post by 746F7475 »

forgetsusername wrote: post #6
746F7475 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, all I can think of is why they didn't change their number? Or block that number from reaching their phone/alarming/whatever. Secondly if the guy was so unstable that he kept sending money why didn't his family intervene by taking away his ability to send money (most likely by closing his credit card or putting very low limit on it). It also surprises me that a person with such sever Alzheimer's was still allowe…

> Secondly if the guy was so unstable that he kept sending money why didn't his family intervene by taking away his ability to send money One day you're going to be old, and we'll see how easily you give up certain perks of being an adult. And let's hope you have loved ones to "intervene" and care for you. > such sever Alzheimer's It doesn't sound like you know what severe Alzheimer's looks like.

I hope my family loves me enough to see that if I'm losing money they prevent me and why does it matter if there are even more sever cases of the disease if even this one lead to a suicide?

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#133

Post by 746F7475 »

afandian wrote: post #7
746F7475 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, all I can think of is why they didn't change their number? Or block that number from reaching their phone/alarming/whatever. Secondly if the guy was so unstable that he kept sending money why didn't his family intervene by taking away his ability to send money (most likely by closing his credit card or putting very low limit on it). It also surprises me that a person with such sever Alzheimer's was still allowe…

If that's all you can think of, think a bit harder. I'm guessing you don't know anyone who's old or vulnerable, or not nearly as well as you do. You're just going to have to take it on trust that that a determined and skilful individual can get the upper hand over a vulnerable person. Also, not everyone lives in an environment where people are caring for them or looking out for them.

So you are saying that no one cared about the guy in the article? Then why was the article even written?

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#134

Post by JBReefer »

scrubby wrote: post #91
JamesBarney wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's greed. I think it's hope. Most of the people I know who fall for these scams are not any dumber or greedier than other people I know. They do seem to be much more optimistic and positive though. Think if this same person has late stage cancer and believed they were gonna make it despite all odds it would be an inspiring lifetime movie. But unfortunately I think these are the same people who also be…

I agree. In my grandfather's case, he was keeping this all a secret because he wanted to surprise his family with financial help from his "windfall." Something I think he always wished he could do, but never had the money to do.

Man, that's incredibly heartbreaking.

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#135

Post by Mz »

scrubby wrote: post #21

My 85 year old grandfather didn't commit suicide, but he was taken for every penny of his meager life savings by the Jamaican lottery scam. My dad discovered what was going on, called the police, but was told there was nothing they could do. My grandfather firmly believed and probably still does that he had won the lottery and was just waiting for a payout. We basically had to revoke his phone privileges to keep him…

My mother is in her late 70s and my father died a couple of years ago, I think just short of his 89th birthday. They grew up in a different world, where a handshake meant something and overnight wealthionnaires who won the lottery or got rich doing something online that many older people cannot fathom or whatever was just not a Thing that was going on.

My dad grew up on a farm, in a log cabin with a dirt floor. He remembered those phones I have only ever seen in black and white movies (http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=old+party+line+phone&FOR...). He was able to tell me those phones were a party line, something I had never known. In other words, one phone line serviced the entire town. Anyone with a phone could pick up when it rang and potentially listen in on your call. There was no expectation of privacy.

He just could not keep up with the rate and level of change in his last years. The world had changed too much and he no longer wanted to try to understand. It was just not the world he grew up in.

People also were less likely to be college educated back then. There are ways in which they genuinely lacked the sophistication we just assume people are supposed to have.

My parents were/are very good hearted people and the way the world has changed just does not fit with how they related to it for so much of their lives. This is probably true for a great many other elderly people.

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#136

Post by jefe_ »

justinsb wrote: post #89

I don't understand why Western Union et al aren't being held accountable, at the very least in the form of a class action lawsuit. It seems that either the money transmitters aren't obeying the "Know Your Customer" laws (are they somehow exempt?), or they are knowingly allowing people to be victims of fraud to increase their profit. Making it much harder to transfer money anonymously seems both helpful in these cases…

The first time I tried to send money on moneygram to a real friend in Uganda, I had to jump through many of these hoops, speaking with a real moneygram representative on the phone. How do you know this person? Have you met this person face to face? Why are you sending this person money? It was annoying so I made my answers as vague as possible. He's a friend. Yes I've met the person. It's for sports equipment. They wanted real answers though and kept probing until finally I started explaining the drive from Kampala to the North I would take if I wanted to deliver the money myself and they were like ok you can send. I was sort of hoping to go from the scammed? queue to the whoa maybe terror financier? tier (where the questions are likely more interesting) but that did not happen which is probably for the best.

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#137

Post by MichaelGG »

patio11 wrote: post #123
nadams wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are no infrastructure changes, or hardware required. This was one of FTC’s guidelines for the contest. > Unfortunately, Nomorobo is not available on traditional analog landlines or wireless phones at this time. Sounds like he failed the challenge... I don't think his idea is revolutionary - one could setup Asterisk to do what he did.

One is welcome to ship an Asterisk implementation of it any time one feels like doing so. One has not shipped an Asterisk implementation. One may underestimate to which degree ideas, revolutionary or otherwise, are improved by actually shipping concrete instantiations of them which actually work. Incidentally: NoMoRobo gains some utility specifically because Twilio exists. A trivial example: phone numbers have a hist…

Fun/rude anecdote: We (a VoIP provider) once got a number that was getting 250K calls every week. Not because telemarketers were calling it, but because that ID was being usd to make a lot of outbound calls. So people would call back, upset, trying to figure stuff out. We dumped the number (no sense paying for all that traffic), but not before shunting it into a conference call (and playing a message telling them so).

It was rather interesting to see how people reacted together. One person would call in, angry, another person would call in, soon there'd be 4 people all yelling at each other "Well you called me!" "No I didn't!" "Now listen here, I think maybe the wires are crossed" and on and on. Sometimes they'd gang up together and try to sort problems out, but often it'd just degenerate into name calling.

Anyways, it's sad that NoMoRobo exists. The FCC could trivially put an end to scam calls, robo-dialing, etc., with a couple days of drafting a new regulation, and then a few months to implement it. Source: I've handled billions of calls, much of which were dialer traffic. I've worked on both sides (trying to block traffic, trying to get upstreams to take traffic).

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#138

Post by MichaelGG »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #99
nadams wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense but I didn't mention a specific VOIP provider on purpose. However, callcentric already has it built and much easier to understand than twilio. I'm not saying that service is bad - but the average person doesn't know what API, cloud, or SIP means (or care). Callcentric makes it pretty obvious what their service is and provides and how to use it.

I specifically mentioned Twilio because anyone can build a custom solution to address this problem. Someone already has done this (with Twilio) to win the FTCs RoboCall Challenge: https://www.twilio.com/blog/2013/04/twilio-powered-nomorobo-... I also like Twilio ;)

Funny. I've handled a lot of dialer traffic for customers, as an intermediary (a billion calls every day or two).

"Legal" robo dialer is fairly easy to block. We blocked it on our systems using the same ideas as in the link. Look for repeated calls, low call duration, etc. However, this did not impact our calling stats at all.

That's right, even filtering out all the "known" dialer, we still had tons of shitty dialer traffic coming. The scammier the dialer, the more inclined they are to just make up a new caller ID for each call. Then there's no real pattern and it's easy to slip through. This is illegal and the FCC can fine $10K a day or something. But they don't.

That's the REAL problem. There's never any follow up. Sure, end-users complain now and then. What does that do? It makes one telco pass up a request "please review or block this number". That's it. It is utterly ineffective.

If the FCC was actually serious, they'd start enforcing rules and hold companies accountable. If I, as a VoIP provider, am liable for my customers to a certain extent, then I'm gonna be a bit more selective. I'll make sure my $29 customers aren't faking caller ID or sending lots of calls. On the wholesale side, I will make sure my contracts contain harsh penalties and keep customers liable. It'll take a few months for stuff to trickle down and be enforceable, but eventually the FCC can simply start handing out fines and this whole game will be over.

There's nothing really stopping this from happening other than the FCC not wanting to do it. Sometimes people say "oh well the problem is someone in Elbonia can sign up for $15 and get going" - yeah well eventually their calls hit the US network, and US law applies. If the provider is letting the Elbonians do their scam, the provider is liable. End of story. Suddenly, providers will require a deposit and scammers will piss off.

It doesn't even have to be a large fine. Just making the cost of making up a new identity be non-trivial (a few hundred dollars is probably enough) will put a pin in it.

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#139

Post by toomuchtodo »

MichaelGG wrote: post #137
patio11 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is welcome to ship an Asterisk implementation of it any time one feels like doing so. One has not shipped an Asterisk implementation. One may underestimate to which degree ideas, revolutionary or otherwise, are improved by actually shipping concrete instantiations of them which actually work. Incidentally: NoMoRobo gains some utility specifically because Twilio exists. A trivial example: phone numbers have a hist…

Fun/rude anecdote: We (a VoIP provider) once got a number that was getting 250K calls every week. Not because telemarketers were calling it, but because that ID was being usd to make a lot of outbound calls. So people would call back, upset, trying to figure stuff out. We dumped the number (no sense paying for all that traffic), but not before shunting it into a conference call (and playing a message telling them so)…

> with a couple days of drafting a new regulation, and then a few months to implement it.

How would they enforce the regulations though without NSA style SS7 taps throughout US telcom network infrastructure?

Re: 81-year-old man driven to death by phone scammers

#140

Post by plonh »

MichaelGG wrote: post #137
patio11 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is welcome to ship an Asterisk implementation of it any time one feels like doing so. One has not shipped an Asterisk implementation. One may underestimate to which degree ideas, revolutionary or otherwise, are improved by actually shipping concrete instantiations of them which actually work. Incidentally: NoMoRobo gains some utility specifically because Twilio exists. A trivial example: phone numbers have a hist…

Fun/rude anecdote: We (a VoIP provider) once got a number that was getting 250K calls every week. Not because telemarketers were calling it, but because that ID was being usd to make a lot of outbound calls. So people would call back, upset, trying to figure stuff out. We dumped the number (no sense paying for all that traffic), but not before shunting it into a conference call (and playing a message telling them so)…

Why would you intentionally harass victims like that?
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