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Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

reuters.com

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Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#171

Post by LoSboccacc »

rconti wrote: post #121
nmrm2 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The most devastating part of all of this for me (a US citizen) is that the German CEO resigns in disgrace and there are ongoing criminal investigations in Germany, but in the USA the CEO holds fast and blames engineers. It seems like the German government is more competent that the US at enforcing laws against corporations, even when those laws are USA laws... *EDIT: This comment is poorly worded. What I mea…

You realize this is the exact opposite of what the rest of the world is saying, right? Is this the first article you've read on the matter? I've been following it with great interest, and many others have expressed shame that it's the US that is catching a European company cheating, and threatening prosecution. This all happened because of the work of the West Virginia lab, plus CARB and EPA's investigation, and the…

actually the european started this asking for help since they had the equipement for static test, but not the equipement to fool the defeating device into thinking it was actually on a road.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#172

Post by caskance »

andor wrote: post #158
rconti wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the Passat has urea injection and is implicated as well -- though it didn't exceed emissions by as much as cars without aftertreatment. And the "couple of engineers" was in reference to the head of engineering and another guy. It wasn't implicating rogue low-level engineers. http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-cause-of-the...

The current scandal is only about the "EA189" engine family with NOx traps for exhaust treatment. The new "EA288" engine family with urea injection was designed from scratch, and, I hope, doesn't need cheating software. Edit: the EA288 is/was -- at least in Europe -- also sold with NOx trap, but VW still claims it's free from cheating software.

Considering all we've learned in this saga about the industry in general and Volkswagen in particular, I would say it's more than likely that it had cheating software anyway.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#173

Post by s73v3r »

See, this is why I can never believe anyone when they try to justify executive level compensation. They always say it's cause the executives are "taking risk" and "responsible for the company." And when things are going well, they're quick to take credit. But when stuff like this goes on, suddenly the CEO still gets his golden parachute, and none of the remaining executives know what's going on.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#174

Post by sheepmullet »

randcraw wrote: post #60
eridius wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because VW might have more motive to do this doesn't automatically mean that they're lying when they say it was the fault of individual engineers. Guilt is not determined by "who has the most motive", it's determined by who actually did it. Now it may very well be true that VW is lying and it was a corporate decision. But it's not completely implausible that this really was the decision of a few individual emplo…

Like NASA, auto companies like VW produce a TON of documentation on all phases of design and engineering. This is especially true when it comes to regulation-sensitive processes like emissions testing. As someone who has worked in a comparably highly regulated industry (pharma) I can state with full confidence that Mr Horn is a lying bastard.

> Like NASA, auto companies like VW produce a TON of documentation on all phases of design and engineering. This is especially true when it comes to regulation-sensitive processes like emissions testing.

Bingo! A lot of HN is acting like "it could slip through the processes we have at work so I can see how it could happen here" without realising that the processes, documentation, and independent review requirements are 100x more involved and thorough for critical car firmware than they are for a basic software shop.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#175

Post by celticninja »

wilsynet wrote: post #155
Havoc wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions there. >those couple of software engineers would have to have a major say over the entire engine design. I call bullshit. The two people they're mainly talking about are head of R&D group and engine development. Yeah I'd imagine they have major say over engine design.

The two heads who lead the R&D and engine development are not software engineers. But they would certainly require software engineers to help them carry out the deception. I highly doubt that only 2 people are involved.

perhaps 2 people who were intentionally intending to mislead. the software engineers could have been told the software was for factory testing only and it would have been their job to produce it. The actual program itself was not illegal just the fact that it was used to mislead official testing.

This ain't no 'independent contractors on the Death Star' issue here.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#176

Post by zardo »

jessaustin wrote: post #118
johansch wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/content/en/the_gr... "Winterkorn’s professional career began in 1977 as a specialist assistant in the research division "Process Engineering" at Robert Bosch GmbH. From 1978 to 1981 he headed the refrigerant compressor development group "Substances and Processes" at Robert Bosch GmbH and Bosch-Siemens-Hausgeräte GmbH. In 1981 Winterkorn joined AUDI AG as assistant to the Mem…

My impression is that manufacturing technology is still technology, and manufacturing engineers are still engineers.

Absolutely, you don't precisely robotically assemble millions of vehicles without a little engineering and technology getting involved.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#177

Post by s73v3r »

johansch wrote: post #97
jsprogrammer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However plausible it may be, it is still not excusable. The company should have processes in place that can verify the claims it makes. Plausible deniability is really just a claim of neglect. Edit: I'm being rate-limited, so I'll respond to the points below right here: >What processes should be in place, exactly, to do what? How about driving a vehicle in the manner most of their customer's do and examining the emis…

What do you mean? Let's assume the individial he is talking about is a manager of a group of hundreds of engineers working in this area. This means this guy's direct manager most likely would not be in a position to inspect the work of people 2-3 levels down for any irregularities. What processes should be in place, exactly, to do what? Quarterly polygraph tests performed by all engineering managers to assure top man…

At the end of the day, that manager is still responsible for everything that happens under them. That's the justification for giving them the big paychecks, isn't it?

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#178

Post by caskance »

jdmichal wrote: post #45
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. However I do feel that the European CEO got off easy by simply being able to walk away.

AFAIK the German government is still investigating the issue. He may have walked away, but that's not necessarily the end of the story.

It's pretty close to the end. Fines will be levied against the Volkswagen company, not to him personally. His stock options will become worthless but he's still set for life. I think in this area, at least, China does it right. Shoot the guy as a warning to the others.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#179

Post by s73v3r »

somebodyother wrote: post #7
taylodl wrote: post #2

"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," - I'm not buying it. What would be their motive compared say to VW's motive? VW has a heck of a lot more motive for falsifying emissions than do "a couple of software engineers." Even if you were to argue the engineers were somehow fearful for their jobs that's still VW's problem because they're the ones who created that work environment i…

Also, it implies a couple of engineers could slip through arbitrary code to be executed under selective conditions. That's terrifying.

Remember the Toyota code, or at least the review, that was leaked a while back? I don't find it surprising at all that it would be possible to sneak through some stuff that no one knows what it does. And in that kind of environment, people generally don't mess with stuff they don't know what it does, cause they don't know what it'll break.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#180

Post by johansch »

s73v3r wrote: post #177
johansch wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? Let's assume the individial he is talking about is a manager of a group of hundreds of engineers working in this area. This means this guy's direct manager most likely would not be in a position to inspect the work of people 2-3 levels down for any irregularities. What processes should be in place, exactly, to do what? Quarterly polygraph tests performed by all engineering managers to assure top man…

At the end of the day, that manager is still responsible for everything that happens under them. That's the justification for giving them the big paychecks, isn't it?

I thought the justification for their big paychecks was the value they brought.
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