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62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

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Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#231

So many people live paycheck to paycheck that saving is just this intangible concept that "wealthier" people do. No one they know saves, no one taught them to save growing up, and even if they tried, they probably couldn't. Cost of living has outmatched wage growth; it's a mess. On the personal responsibility side of it though, I'm willing to bet that over recent decades, another thing that has also inflated is many…

Your perspective is one that I share, on the nature of class-based economics in a 'consumer' society such as the modern United States. I'm going to copy/paste a summary that I sent to a former co-worker (CFA Level 3, >$6B AUM) for his thoughts and he felt I did an okay job (made me feel smart).

So demographically, older workers have not saved enough for retirement. That drives them to maintain employment. With a lack of job opportunities (the slack), the youngest generations are presented a significant challenge – with amongst the highest debt levels and least job prospects, the youth cohort entering its first (or prime) earning years can be paired with another observed phenomenon, that of the wealth disparity. As a premise, poor people and young people spend aggressively, wealthy households invest and don’t spend proportionally to their means, and a significant number of older Americans have no retirement savings to speak of, and therefore cannot spend proportional to offset their declining economic contribution. Essentially, this is a perfect recipe to grind an economy to a halt: Wealthy people don’t spend, elderly workers don’t spend, poor people and young people love to spend but can’t without reasonable access to funding.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#232

A lot of people here think this is about you parse "savings". It's not: 47% of Americans say they lack the cash to pay a surprise $400 bill http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/09/...

It's revealing how spectacularly everyone here is missing the point. To anyone born into and raised amongst the working class this result is obvious. Most people don't have any savings. If that isn't obvious to you, then you're not spending a lot of time with most people.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#233

And people wonder why they say Tech is out of touch. Reading the comments here is a great demonstration. Examples: > who uses savings accounts anymore? > Cash on hand or it's invested in stocks, bonds and my home. > The truth is you're losing more money by not having any of it generating higher potential yields. > the total net worth of my wife and me is many orders of magnitude greater than what our savings account…

Hi. I agree most people here are out of touch. While I am no longer in such a desperate situation, I was once in a few of them. I resolved to, and ultimate worked for and sold a financial product to help people with many of the problems they now face (sort of not making enough money or being in a debt spiral, but give me a few years to amass capital and I can try that too). I assure you, I have excellent data we use…

...the real story is one of outrageous wealth extraction from the young to the old without a hint of remorse or self-reflection.

Bingo. More than half of your taxes are directly transferred to retirees. Those debt payments on your school loans are paid back to investors, many of whom are large pension funds and insurance / annuity accounts. The Fed has refused to allow a housing market correction, which is an implicit transfer from young to old. And the main point of Obamacare was to force young people to purchase insurance in order to subsidize the older generation.

But if younger people would just stop going to Starbucks and buying IPhones, they wouldn't have any financial problems.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can argue MMM is trying to hide his rental situation given that he has published numerous blog posts discussing it in depth starting in 2011: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/23/get-rich-with-owni... http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/06/29/good-times-for-lan...

His whole message of frugality makes zero sense in the wider context of his behaviour. He's giving advice to everyone but if everyone behaved as he did the world would end because we can't have a world where every family derives a significant proportion of it's income from two other families for zero value added.

Of course you can't have a world where everyone becomes a landlord, but that doesn't mean this is a completely invalid form of income generation for some people (that's the benefit of being able to take a nuanced view of advice from others).

It seems like you are being reductive and misleading in characterising his position - First you argue he won't dare talk about rental income, then when examples emerge of him doing so you say that he is exhorting everyone to do it!

MMM talks at length about other sources of income generation too, but let's just ignore those:

* Stocks: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/18/how-to-make-money-...

* Peer-to-peer lending: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/26/the-lending-club-e...

* Carpentry: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/27/nicer-legs-and-som...

As for frugality this may not be a path to financial security for many but it sure is a refreshing departure from the "more, more, more" of modern life.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#235
post #129
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true but why should I let the bank make all the money off my savings? If I were to lose my job today I could easily find a bartending job like I did in college to support myself in the time it takes to find a new job. My situation may be different than a lot of people and I live in a large city. If I had 15k in savings to buy a house in two years I could put 10k into a CD and still make something like $300. T…

f I were to lose my job today I could easily find a bartending job like I did in college to support myself in the time it takes to find a new job. My situation may be different than a lot of people and I live in a large city. This is not an option for a lot of people, particularly those with families. That said, your follow-up makes sense, and I've typically done something similar.

Don't count on the fact that a bartending job will always be easy to come by just because it once was.

Back in 2008 any job (even fast food) was hard to come by in my area.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet another excellent read from MMM.

How many rental properties does he have? Think he just survives on being frugal and dollar cost averaging? Think again.

I like the cut of your jib.

I've been considering buying rental properties to supplement my income, but something deep inside somewhere, based on living close to people well below my income level as one of a 4-unit building, prevented me from doing it.

When I tried to compute how much rent I would charge, I realized I would be profiting simply by taking money from them because they have been unable to accumulate capital at the pace I have been. While that does indicate some skill on my part - hey, I scrimp and shop wisely - I don't feel it morally qualifies me to skim from others. That would be paying myself twice. When I scrimp and shop wisely, I benefit from having extra savings, but using that savings to get more from others without adding more value is something I don't feel right doing.

I could morally accept money as a landlord based on my labor doing maintenance and time spent bookkeeping, I suppose. That - speaking as a current tenant - does have some value, but I just don't think it would be much, approximately that of a day laborer or accountant for several hours a week. So screw it, i'll make a lot more money creating something of real value.

Thank you for helping me recognize and articulate this, branchless.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#237
post #171
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the second person to say this, but how would "cash in savings" be equally worthless? Maybe I'm not understanding, but it's pretty difficult to actually lose money in a savings account, that's the whole point.

Because in diversified portfolio, to loose it all the following must happen. All listed companies must have completely collapsed. Goverment must have basically collpased to loose all value on the bonds. If that happens its probably the financial amagedden anyway. If the stock market falls by 50% i still have 70% of my portfolio. I'm OK with that.

Right but these days there's a lot of correlation between assets and all the big moves happen in response to monetary policy. In an environment where everything doesn't hinge on extremely low interest rates I'm in total agreement, but you're really exposed to policy risk in the market right now.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many rental properties does he have? Think he just survives on being frugal and dollar cost averaging? Think again.

I like the cut of your jib. I've been considering buying rental properties to supplement my income, but something deep inside somewhere, based on living close to people well below my income level as one of a 4-unit building, prevented me from doing it. When I tried to compute how much rent I would charge, I realized I would be profiting simply by taking money from them because they have been unable to accumulate capi…

Glad to help. Spread the word and don't accept the empty US rhetoric that "it's just business, baby".

Good for you for having some back-bone.

Deriving income by adding value is fine. The rentier just takes.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#239
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many rental properties does he have? Think he just survives on being frugal and dollar cost averaging? Think again.

He publishes his family's spending every year: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-fa...

right 25 grand--no house or car payment because he was in the right jobs at the right time and could afford to buy most families' largest expenses outright (over 50% of income between the two)--and he still managed to spend the entire pre-tax income of about 30% of american households.

Re: 62% of Americans Have Under $1,000 in Savings, Survey Finds

#240
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok you've really shown you have zero background in economics with that one. It's "rentiers", I can spell renters fine but it makes zero sense in the context above. Go read.

On that one point, I misread and you are, of course, correct. We will however have to agree to disagree about the evils off living of rental income.

Come on man up. Rentiers is peppered across - you never heard of it. If that's the case you haven't read enough to have an informed opinion.

Read some Henry George and get over my side of the fence :-)

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