Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#101

Post by ScottBurson » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:13 PM UTC

glenneroo wrote: post #86

theli0nheart wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, supposing this is true, would you actually be surprised by this? This is a car company, not a CI and code-review obsessed software company in Silicon Valley.

Someone else posted this higher up: Then you don't know the motor industry very much as it has very strict coding standards like ISO 26262, the code has to be audited internally and by certified 3rd parties with every release to meet the development cycle requirements of the standards. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-... . The industry also has specific coding standard for every language t…

But see the reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10355200

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#102

Post by cnvogel » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:13 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #93

cnvogel wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The investigations regarding Toyotas(?) unexplained/unintended acceleration suggest otherwise. The code was apparently pretty bad, halfheartedly reviewed and just unmaintainable. While there the software seemed to have (a huge number of) errors put in by mistake, of course most independent reviews should also spot intentional mischief. I don't claim that VW had comparably crappy code, but "industry practice" likely w…

Here, this link will help: http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...

Thanks for adding this!

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#103

Post by jonknee » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:14 PM UTC

johansch wrote: post #61

PaulAJ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way could it be just a couple of software engineers. The engine is a system, and its the engine that has to pass the emissions tests. So that means the whole engine development team had to be in on it, including their technical management. They in turn would not have done such a thing if they had not believed that senior management wanted it, and it is the responsibility of senior management to make it clear what…

When this CEO of a company with 600k employees says "it's some software engineers", I assume he might actually be honestly referring to what we would call engineering managers, perhaps with hundreds of indirect reports, 2-3 levels down from the CEO. I find this plausible... (Particularly since these hearings seem designed to score political points rather than to find out what actually happened.)

The (now resigned) CEO prided himself on being an engineer and in depth knowledge. I don't believe he didn't know how VW was able to market clean diesel engines in the US without having a clean diesel emission system for them.

His big thing was to be the largest car maker and he needed to juice US sales to get there. He had to have spent a lot of time on US strategy. The shitty part is that he succeeded--they became #1 (this year!) and he has a huge pension to retire on.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#104

Post by kimdouglasmason » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:15 PM UTC

Nope, definitely systemic within the company. The engine is a system that must meet certain requirements. The standard way of meeting those requirements is to have a urea injection system. That's what the competitors in the US do; it's also what Subaru, for example, don't do, and they don't sell into the US market.

In order to pull off this little 2-person hack that Horn alleges, those couple of software engineers would have to have a major say over the entire engine design. I call bullshit. This little hack ONLY makes sense in the absence of other major engine components.

The company culture is clearly absolutely rotten and their execs are liars. Employee morale, especially in engineering, must be through the floor.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#105

Post by rasz_pl » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:15 PM UTC

couple of software engineers, just like a couple of low ranking employes decided to do the _same_ thing at Peugeot, Renault, Citroen, Volvo and Ford!

http://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/kosten/unregelmaessigkeite...

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#106

Post by artumi-richard » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:16 PM UTC

I just today listened to the BBC Bottom Line Special [1] on this, and their guests, one who used to run Jaguar, and an expert on VW, don't buy it. Their argument is that the engineers in VW could have done a proper job, but the technology would add another $500 to each vehicle, and VW must have been looking for a way not to spend the $500. And all the other VW engineers would ask "How did you do it?".

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06jt518 9mins 15 onward

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#107

Post by Karunamon » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:19 PM UTC

illumen wrote: post #90

acd wrote: post #69

In my country Audi says the cars using the engine are "technically safe to use and drive". I did report that to the consumer oversight board. I believe it's false marketing, the cars are a danger to pedestrians and cyclists outside the car. I believe it's lies upon lies from the upper management seems like a corporate culture going wrong.

There's clear evidence that many cities throughout Europe have too high air pollution, and that it kills close to what smoking does. Cities have been ordered by the EU to clean up by the end of the year, or face harsh fines. Over 80,000 people die in the UK per year (smoking kills 100,000). Mostly from diesel engine pollution. Now try to think how many people it kills in the rest of Europe, the USA and the world? Car…

That's evidence of pollution in general being a problem, which isn't even in the same ballpark as establishing culpability for any amount of deaths for an extra amount of one kind of pollutant by one carmaker over a fixed time period.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#108

Post by johansch » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:19 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #103

johansch wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When this CEO of a company with 600k employees says "it's some software engineers", I assume he might actually be honestly referring to what we would call engineering managers, perhaps with hundreds of indirect reports, 2-3 levels down from the CEO. I find this plausible... (Particularly since these hearings seem designed to score political points rather than to find out what actually happened.)

The (now resigned) CEO prided himself on being an engineer and in depth knowledge. I don't believe he didn't know how VW was able to market clean diesel engines in the US without having a clean diesel emission system for them. His big thing was to be the largest car maker and he needed to juice US sales to get there. He had to have spent a lot of time on US strategy. The shitty part is that he succeeded--they became…

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/content/en/the_gr...

"Winterkorn’s professional career began in 1977 as a specialist assistant in the research division "Process Engineering" at Robert Bosch GmbH. From 1978 to 1981 he headed the refrigerant compressor development group "Substances and Processes" at Robert Bosch GmbH and Bosch-Siemens-Hausgeräte GmbH.

In 1981 Winterkorn joined AUDI AG as assistant to the Member of the Board for Quality Assurance. Two years later, he assumed responsibility for "Measuring Technology/Sampling and Test Laboratory" at Audi. At the beginning of 1988, he was made departmental head of "Central Quality Assurance", and in 1990 Head of Audi Quality Assurance.

In 1993 Winterkorn became Head of "Group Quality Assurance" at Volkswagen AG and was appointed General Representative of Volkswagen AG in March 1994."

These would be his formative years. It seems he focused on processes and quality rather than actual technology, IMO.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#109

Post by CyberDildonics » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

What a total fucking asshole.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#110

Post by nmrm2 » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #15

taylodl wrote: post #2

"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," - I'm not buying it. What would be their motive compared say to VW's motive? VW has a heck of a lot more motive for falsifying emissions than do "a couple of software engineers." Even if you were to argue the engineers were somehow fearful for their jobs that's still VW's problem because they're the ones who created that work environment i…

> I really expected VW to do better in handling this. Ignore whatever comes out of the VW USA guy. The investigations in Germany will most likely be more fruitful especially because police is involved.

Exactly. The most devastating part of all of this for me (a US citizen) is that the German CEO resigns in disgrace and there are ongoing criminal investigations in Germany, but in the USA the CEO holds fast and blames engineers.

It seems like the German government is more competent that the US at enforcing laws against corporations, even when those laws are USA laws...

*EDIT: This comment is poorly worded. What I mean to say is, Germany is doing a better job at holding PEOPLE AT THE TOP responsible, whereas the USA is predictably allowing CxOs to plead ignorance and hide behind the corporate veil. Meanwhile in Germany, http://www.wsj.com/articles/german-prosecutors-open-investig...