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Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

reuters.com

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Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#81

Post by toddmorey »

taylodl wrote: post #2

"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," - I'm not buying it. What would be their motive compared say to VW's motive? VW has a heck of a lot more motive for falsifying emissions than do "a couple of software engineers." Even if you were to argue the engineers were somehow fearful for their jobs that's still VW's problem because they're the ones who created that work environment i…

Right. And those tests and regulations exist in the interest of public health, not product benchmarking. So the issue is bigger than lying about some performance metric to compare more favorable to competitors. And it's also not a domain that's auxiliary—this is engine technology, the very heart of the company and the product. And good god, they built an entire brand campaign around it.

I really do feel this is analogous to some large pharmaceutical finally admitting that they cheated clinical testing on an important drug. You can't just pin that back to a couple of "rouge scientists".

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#82

Post by greggman »

This pass the buck attitude really pisses me off. You're the head of the company, department, whatever, it's your gawd damn responsibility if your subordinates do something wrong. If you hired bad people it's still your responsibility. If you hired people that hired people it's still your responsibility. I don't care if you knew or not. You set the tone, you set the impossible deadlines or requirements. You fostered a culture where someone thought that would be okay to do. Own up!

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#84

Post by jsprogrammer »

cmiles74 wrote: post #36
somebodyother wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it implies a couple of engineers could slip through arbitrary code to be executed under selective conditions. That's terrifying.

The code might even have been outsourced. I'm not trying to disparage outsourced developers, I know what I might do if the user story was something like "Needs to pass emissions when attached to test system."

It shouldn't matter. Another test process should have caught incorrect code. The car should be tested to the specs and the specs should reflect the regulations.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#85

Post by madez »

happyscrappy wrote: post #54
andmarios wrote: post #50

How could some engineers cheat the entire VW corporation? Germans are known for their ridiculously meticulous standards and testing. VW should have many in-house and external-independent labs performing tests. The engineers who write the ECU code have a great distance from the mechanics who test every engine and car batch from their production line. How did they never tested and engine entirely; power, emissions, con…

This is even more unreal given their ad campaign "Truth in Engineering".

The engineering was solid, it worked as intended, in contrast to the software of other car companies.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#86

Post by glenneroo »

theli0nheart wrote: post #19
somebodyother wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it implies a couple of engineers could slip through arbitrary code to be executed under selective conditions. That's terrifying.

And, supposing this is true, would you actually be surprised by this? This is a car company, not a CI and code-review obsessed software company in Silicon Valley.

Someone else posted this higher up:

Then you don't know the motor industry very much as it has very strict coding standards like ISO 26262, the code has to be audited internally and by certified 3rd parties with every release to meet the development cycle requirements of the standards. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-.... The industry also has specific coding standard for every language that is used in embedded systems like MISRA-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#87

Post by jes »

Laaw wrote: post #67
mrighele wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found products made by car companies to be in general more reliable than those made by software companies (either in Silicon Valley or not). I trust my life to my car (software included) every day. I wouldn't do that with any software of my smartphone, not even the OS.

Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. When an engineer builds a bridge, she has to personally sign off on the bridge, saying it's safe, and is risking not only her professional career, but I think she can also be jailed an…

If you could have perfectly safe software, without requiring individual engineers to be licensed, would that be acceptable to you?

I'm not asking if you think such a thing would be possible or not - I'm asking if you would accept an alternate means of getting what I think we both want.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#89

Post by ambrop7 »

Laaw wrote: post #67
mrighele wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found products made by car companies to be in general more reliable than those made by software companies (either in Silicon Valley or not). I trust my life to my car (software included) every day. I wouldn't do that with any software of my smartphone, not even the OS.

Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. When an engineer builds a bridge, she has to personally sign off on the bridge, saying it's safe, and is risking not only her professional career, but I think she can also be jailed an…

There are many standards of engineering involving software.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#90

Post by illumen »

acd wrote: post #69

In my country Audi says the cars using the engine are "technically safe to use and drive". I did report that to the consumer oversight board. I believe it's false marketing, the cars are a danger to pedestrians and cyclists outside the car. I believe it's lies upon lies from the upper management seems like a corporate culture going wrong.

There's clear evidence that many cities throughout Europe have too high air pollution, and that it kills close to what smoking does. Cities have been ordered by the EU to clean up by the end of the year, or face harsh fines. Over 80,000 people die in the UK per year (smoking kills 100,000). Mostly from diesel engine pollution.

Now try to think how many people it kills in the rest of Europe, the USA and the world?

Cars (and buses) stink, are noisy, and worse -- they kill on a massive scale. There is alternative tech available for order now that doesn't kill as much, and provides better service.

Demand that the killing machines are replaced, and the makers, and the users are brought to justice if they don't!

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-95...

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