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The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

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Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#131

Post by caskance »

hackuser wrote: post #6

A HN contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end-users, that will make them aware of this issue and persuade them that it is important to them. Vote up the best ones. [EDIT: The goal is to persuade them about its dangers, not sell them something based on it] That elevator pitch is key. I have extensive knowledge about this issue but have a hard time coming up with it; I need to be prepared. Ch…

A carriage manufacturer contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end users that will make the aware of the danger of automobiles and persuade them that it is important.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#132

Post by caskance »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #86
mmanfrin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to say this, but: I think this would be very cool. See someone interesting at the bar? Scan and check to find a convenient ice breaker. "Oh! We both went to the same summer camp as kids!"

That is cool until every man uses it on you daughter.

Your daughter would be fine if her paranoid luddite father hadn't forbidden her from getting her own setup.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#133

Post by caskance »

hackuser wrote: post #69
shabbyrobe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried this one on lay people before. The problem I have is that they usually can't get past their firm belief that these things are technologically impossible, even after you explain to them that they are. "That all sounds like science fiction, that can't happen in the real world." Also it can fall down if you don't stick only to directly relatable details: "but I don't walk through a bad neighbourhood, so this…

> it can fall down if you don't stick only to directly relatable details: "but I don't walk through a bad neighbourhood, so this wouldn't affect me and therefore I don't see how it could be a problem". The instant it ceases to speak to their experience directly, you've lost them. A tangent: I enounter this too, all the time, with intelligent, well-educated people. It's as if people don't understand what "example" mea…

That this kind of risk is zero-sum. If higher rates are charged to people who meet these criteria, those of us who don't will get better rates from competitive lenders.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#134

Post by caskance »

newman314 wrote: post #55
macNchz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've spent years saving up to finally buy a home. You're having a baby in a few months, and you really need the space. You have the down payment ready, your credit is great, you've ticked all the boxes on the application, but you're turned down for the loan. Why? Maybe you walk home through a bad neighborhood. Maybe you sometimes grab a beer at a bit of a divey bar near your office. Maybe you've visited an old frie…

Decent example. I generalized this as "You have something you really want (everyone has different goals). Right when you think you are about to achieve your goal, it is taken away (because of something stupid you did in the past; everyone has done something stupid at one point). This is why unchecked data collection is bad"

The problem is that there is no reason to believe that is more likely than the opposite case of "You have something you really want (everyone has different goals). Right when you think you are about to fail to reach your goal, it is achieved (because of something clever you did in the past; everyone has done something clever at one point). This is why unchecked data collection is good"

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#135

Post by caskance »

ineedtosleep wrote: post #66
analyst74 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But doesn't this cut both ways? If you don't hang around questionable people, you'd qualify for better rate for loans. Or if your credit score is not very high, but the fact you don't hang around questionable people brings your credit file up a notch and make you qualify.

"Questionable people" is hardly a concrete descriptor, nor is it something immediately obvious. Let's say I meet a guy at a party. Facial scanners detect me with him. He seems like a nice guy, but he is currently on trial for a number of white collar offenses -- I know none of this. "The machine" does and will now assume I hang around questionable people.

The chances are just as good - not necessarily 50/50, but close to population baseline - that the person you met actually was a nice guy and "the machine" assumes you hang around with good people.

If your chances are actually higher than population average to hang around with bad people, the machine is probably correct for assigning you a higher risk.

Which all misses the point that as soon as he walked into the party, your own ocular implants would have performed the same recognition and you would have known to stay away from him.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#136

Post by caskance »

ksenzee wrote: post #35
cantrevealname wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be the killer app for Google Glass. Not just for your situation, but for salesmen, customer service reps, security guards, politicians, or anyone who needs to recognize lots of people, recall names, and bring up an instant profile about the person standing in front of them. (Granted, even this application has serious overtones of societal surveillance.) EDIT: Anyone care to speculate on why Google Glass do…

Google Glass bans facial recognition apps[0]. I've tweeted them about getting an exception for assistive tech but I've never pursued it any further[1]. [0] https://developers.google.com/glass/policies?hl=en [1] https://twitter.com/googleglass/status/463838878143492096

Google Glass specifically, yes. There will be other products with the same form factor that don't have the same restriction. And you can always just take your chances with sideloading an app even if Google themselves aren't willing to distribute it.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#137

Post by caskance »

jpatokal wrote: post #65

So are we actually there yet? I was under the impression that, while face recognition has evolved to the point that face matching against a limited group of people (say, your Facebook friends) is feasible, we're still a long ways off from being able to put a face-scanner in a crowd in NYC and have it spot the 1 suspect among 10 million without a totally ridiculous rate of false positives.

With sufficient data, you can narrow down the NYC crowd population quite a bit too. Whose smartphones are known to be nearby vs whose are known to be far away probably already gets you 90% of the way there.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#139

Post by caskance »

joe_the_user wrote: post #8

I'm not sure what "good as a person" means in the context of large scale facial recognition. I know software is now scoring as people on various standard AI tests. But most people couldn't recognize a million other people correctly. The situation is kind of odd. It's like how engineering a car to drive automatically in a variety of controlled situations which might represent 90% of the normal driving. They are still…

I still see checkout clerks and airline gate agents do this all the time.
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