Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users • Hacker News Board

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#221

Post by rmc » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 7:58 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #108

dunkelheit wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real-name internet identities have some drawbacks compared to their real-world counterparts: 1. In real life its fairly easy (and I would say healthy) to have multiple "identities", say your workday exquisitely professional identity and weekend identity which enjoys goofy antics with friends. In infinitely googlable internet - not so much. I guess mitigating this is the idea behind google+ circles but I have never us…

> In real life its fairly easy (and I would say healthy) to have multiple "identities", say your workday exquisitely professional identity and weekend identity which enjoys goofy antics with friends. I think Facebook primarily targets the second one. Though personally, I find the whole concept of this type of multiple identities weird. Why should I present a different identity at work than I do in personal affairs? A…

> Why should I present a different identity at work than I do in personal affairs?

Here's one: Gay people. There are many places where you can be fired for being gay.

> you should consider changing jobs.

That isn't always possible.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#222

Post by rmc » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:01 AM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #177

bzbarsky wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I can present a different identity, including different name, to these different groups? My family knows me by a name that's not even in the same character set as the name that my co-workers know me by. Just like my neighbor who's a teacher can have all her students see her as "Mrs. Jones" while her college friends see her as "Emily"? I'm not talking about keeping my separate groups of acquaintances separate in m…

You can't present a different name, but I think that's a pretty narrow use-case. For teachers, sure, but I don't see a reason for teachers to be Facebook friends with students. You can certainly be searchable by names in different character sets. I have a Korean friend whose name on Facebook is in Korean, but you can find him by searching for "Henry" as well. If this compartmentalization is so important, why not just…

> You can't present a different name, but I think that's a pretty narrow use-case.

In the USA (and increasingly UK), everyone calls everyone by their first name. This is not the case in many places. Why not let people be "Jim" to friends and "Mr. Smith" to co-workers? That is very common.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#223

Post by rmc » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:05 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #58

JoshTriplett wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then that's the name he can and should use on Facebook. Facebook's policy is not that you have to use your legal name. It's that you should use the name you go by in everyday life, not a pseudonym you invented for online publishing. Your statement contradicts Facebook's actual policies in practice, which in many cases attempt to mandate the use of a name backed by government-issued ID.

If you read some of the linked documents, they admit that their process isn't currently perfect and are working on finding better ways of verifying identity without depending on government IDs.

People have been complaining about this for years and FB has yet to actually change their policy. This is a company that has "Move fast and break things" as a motto, and you expect us to believe that they cannot move fast with updating a company policy doc?

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#224

Post by kofejnik » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:07 AM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #166

smt88 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have responded to the criticism of their historical behavior and now only make changes with quite a bit of fanfare. They haven't done anything overtly evil related to privacy in a while.

"Facebook hasn't abused their users much in a while, so I trust them to never do so again ever" is pretty fucking slim for someone whose career or life could be endangered.

Exactly. I have been let go (with a good package, though) from a dream job over a single personal comment from a long-time friend, who happened to work for a rival company. "You're friends irl with NNN? Sorry we have to let you go, cannot have risks like this when planning this merger". Hello, depression.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#225

Post by rmc » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:09 AM UTC

personjerry wrote: post #77

I've only heard of the issue from the LGBTQ stance, and I'm not very clear here. But I'm wondering, for these people, why not just legally change your name?

> why not just legally change your name?

Well, what if you're not fully out of the closet yet? What if you're a teenager in a very religious household?

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#226

Post by Natsu » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:17 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #211

Natsu wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another possibility is that your social graph might have more overlap than you realize, even if it's not very much, it could be enough to make them the 'nearest' to you in some way. At least some of the graph data can come from sources invisible to you (i.e. people looking at other people's Facebook connections).

Yes, that could be an option too, though in this case it would be surprising given that this was a new subcontractor of our actual client, in a place neither of us have ever been before. But I recognize the phenomena you mention; I sometimes see random people on Facebook with surprising amount of overlap with my social graph, even crossing the groups I consider mostly unrelated (say, a person is a friend with few of…

That does seem hard to explain. It's creepy sometimes to wonder just how much they can figure out from how little and where all the information siphons are actually located.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#227

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:25 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #219

Swizec wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the friend request per se, it's about being able to find people. A large part of your FB profile is public. At the very least, I now know your last name. Maybe even your birthday. In a lot of cases, that's enough to perform some light identity theft. Or I can find your exact address. Or I can find out where you work, or just see all the places you like hanging out at and so on and so on. I don't want t…

It's almost like computer security. One little vulnerbility might be nothing. But it allows someone to pivot to something else. Which allows them to pivot to the next level. etc. etc.

Except that at this point it's IMO worrying too much. Being afraid of having your name discovered is a bit on the paranoid side for most people. Hell, it's usually trivial to get that data off-line and dangerous people will likely target you directly.

By the way, some people don't even try. Few days ago I saw a girl on the tram carrying her CV in such a way it would be trivial to shoulder-surf her name, email, phone number, date of birth and home address.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#228

Post by Already__Taken » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:29 AM UTC

Estragon wrote: post #195

Nadya wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have the FB app installed it has access to your contacts.

What does the FB app give you that the website doesn't anyway? I had no idea why I would want it on my phone when FB was pushing it on me.

Instant messaging :(

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#229

Post by Swizec » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:39 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #227

rmc wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost like computer security. One little vulnerbility might be nothing. But it allows someone to pivot to something else. Which allows them to pivot to the next level. etc. etc.

Except that at this point it's IMO worrying too much. Being afraid of having your name discovered is a bit on the paranoid side for most people. Hell, it's usually trivial to get that data off-line and dangerous people will likely target you directly. By the way, some people don't even try. Few days ago I saw a girl on the tram carrying her CV in such a way it would be trivial to shoulder-surf her name, email, phone…

That attitude changes when you get death threats sent to your email that mention your home address because your dad had a business disagreed with an unstable person.

Yeah, that happens irl sometimes.

The scary thing is that you don't know who will turn out to be unstable, and it can be someone you never even interact with who is just trying to use you to get under somebody else's skin.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#230

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 8:42 AM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #226

TeMPOraL wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that could be an option too, though in this case it would be surprising given that this was a new subcontractor of our actual client, in a place neither of us have ever been before. But I recognize the phenomena you mention; I sometimes see random people on Facebook with surprising amount of overlap with my social graph, even crossing the groups I consider mostly unrelated (say, a person is a friend with few of…

That does seem hard to explain. It's creepy sometimes to wonder just how much they can figure out from how little and where all the information siphons are actually located.

Honestly, I find it both empowering (oh the data I can find if I know where to look) and reassuring. Why reassuring? Because it reminds us that lies can and will be discovered. Some people like to think they'll get away with one but it's only a function of how much someone else cares. But reality is self-consistent and in the Great Web of Causality falsehood is just damage that needs to be routed over.

Conversely, lying is a malicious act. It'sdirectly sabotaging the model of the world and reasoning capabilities of other human beings, with recursive damage being dealt as that person propagates or reasons from false information. Unless placed in life or death situation (std::jews_hiding_in_your_basement), you really shouldn't do it. It boggles my mind how lightly people treat spreading falsehoods.