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The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

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Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#81

Post by shabbyrobe »

imron wrote: post #70
shabbyrobe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried this one on lay people before. The problem I have is that they usually can't get past their firm belief that these things are technologically impossible, even after you explain to them that they are. "That all sounds like science fiction, that can't happen in the real world." Also it can fall down if you don't stick only to directly relatable details: "but I don't walk through a bad neighbourhood, so this…

> "That all sounds like science fiction, that can't happen in the real world." Tell them that the mobile phone they have in their pocket also seems like science fiction - and it was 20-30 years ago. Now it is science fact. Facial recognition is getting the same way. If anything, based on all the shoddy movies that 'zoom in, enhance' with photos, the public should be primed to accept facial recognition quite easily.

I know it seems crazy, it seems crazy to me too, but this is what I encounter time and time again. No matter how carefully you explain it, it seems too unlikely to them. Once the explanation passes a certain threshhold of complexity (for which the bar is frighteningly low), they tune out and shut down.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#82

Post by deciplex »

shabbyrobe wrote: post #67
macNchz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've spent years saving up to finally buy a home. You're having a baby in a few months, and you really need the space. You have the down payment ready, your credit is great, you've ticked all the boxes on the application, but you're turned down for the loan. Why? Maybe you walk home through a bad neighborhood. Maybe you sometimes grab a beer at a bit of a divey bar near your office. Maybe you've visited an old frie…

I've tried this one on lay people before. The problem I have is that they usually can't get past their firm belief that these things are technologically impossible, even after you explain to them that they are. "That all sounds like science fiction, that can't happen in the real world." Also it can fall down if you don't stick only to directly relatable details: "but I don't walk through a bad neighbourhood, so this…

> "but I don't walk through a bad neighbourhood, so this wouldn't affect me and therefore I don't see how it could be a problem"

That's why it's called an "elevator pitch". If you get this sort of response, you get out of the elevator and pitch the person off the roof of the building.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#83

Post by anigbrowl »

analyst74 wrote: post #60
macNchz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've spent years saving up to finally buy a home. You're having a baby in a few months, and you really need the space. You have the down payment ready, your credit is great, you've ticked all the boxes on the application, but you're turned down for the loan. Why? Maybe you walk home through a bad neighborhood. Maybe you sometimes grab a beer at a bit of a divey bar near your office. Maybe you've visited an old frie…

But doesn't this cut both ways? If you don't hang around questionable people, you'd qualify for better rate for loans. Or if your credit score is not very high, but the fact you don't hang around questionable people brings your credit file up a notch and make you qualify.

I think you will find this historic legal case of considerable interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yick_Wo_v._Hopkins

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#84

Post by anigbrowl »

ksenzee wrote: post #21

As someone with prosopagnosia (neurological inability to recognize faces) I find this incredibly frustrating. My everyday life would be immensely easier with assistive tech that told me the names of everyone I see. And now that the technology exists to develop such a useful device, what do we get instead? Mass societal surveillance.

How do you deal with this in real life? Do you recognize your friends' voices, or have they learned that they just need to identify themselves when you meet?

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#85

Post by anigbrowl »

baobabaobab wrote: post #72
cookiecaper wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately you can't put the genie back in the bottle. I don't think there's a real way to fight this in the age of networks and cameras in every pocket. There are many good uses for the ability to instantly recognize and identify anybody from a crowd, as well as bad ones. Probably the easiest way to frustrate these things would be the simplest; only go out in public with substantial facial features obscured or al…

http://cvdazzle.com/ I don't know how well obscuring facial features will really work. There might just be too much information. Partially obscured face, body dimensions, clothing, location, time... I think it might be a loosing battle.

Who wants to do that every day? Also, how long before we can out-calculate it? Right now we can already match things like gait patterns and multiple biometrics (eg height, relative length of limbs) well enough for many purposes using probabilistic systems (eg your metrics match 3 people but the other two are on different continents so I'm 99% certain it's you).

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#86

Post by DamnYuppie »

mmanfrin wrote: post #56
pkinsky wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automatic social network shortest-path finding: point your phone at someone and find out if you're friends-of-friends, if you went to the same school, worked at the same company once, etc.

I hate to say this, but: I think this would be very cool. See someone interesting at the bar? Scan and check to find a convenient ice breaker. "Oh! We both went to the same summer camp as kids!"

That is cool until every man uses it on you daughter.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#87

Post by hackuser »

joe_the_user wrote: post #79
hackuser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> store clerk knowing your name when you walk in the store is mostly creepy and wouldn't help sales Saying your name might be creepy (but maybe people will become accustomed to it). Knowing your identity I think would certainly help sales, the same way it does when you shop online.

Knowing your identity I think would certainly help sales, the same way it does when you shop online. How? I suppose you could have store change it's stock based on who it knows has visited it. But that sounds cumbersome and speculative. The store might find itself removing the things people like to buy from that store and stocking things people prefer to buy from other stores and so wind-up selling less. Kind of like…

I'm surprised to find questions like this on HN. These are fundemental concepts that drive SV; while I don't expect the world to understand I expect it here.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#88

Post by meric »

duderific wrote: post #77
imron wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "That all sounds like science fiction, that can't happen in the real world." Tell them that the mobile phone they have in their pocket also seems like science fiction - and it was 20-30 years ago. Now it is science fact. Facial recognition is getting the same way. If anything, based on all the shoddy movies that 'zoom in, enhance' with photos, the public should be primed to accept facial recognition quite easily.

Ha, when watching those shows, I am always the nerd telling my wife how it's impossible to zoom in and enhance, because you can't create more information than existed when the photo was taken. I'm not sure that she gets it.

If you take a blurry photo of a license plate - it can be possible to enhance it (e.g. using sharpen) to reveal the license plate number - just because your naked eyes can't extract that information from a blurry photo doesn't mean the blurry photo doesn't already have enough information to encode the number precisely.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#89

Post by kevinchen »

anigbrowl wrote: post #84
ksenzee wrote: post #21

As someone with prosopagnosia (neurological inability to recognize faces) I find this incredibly frustrating. My everyday life would be immensely easier with assistive tech that told me the names of everyone I see. And now that the technology exists to develop such a useful device, what do we get instead? Mass societal surveillance.

How do you deal with this in real life? Do you recognize your friends' voices, or have they learned that they just need to identify themselves when you meet?

I don't want to speak for ksenzee, but a friend of mine with prosopagnosia uses body language (e.g. gait) and clothing to recognize people.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#90

Post by jodrellblank »

cookiecaper wrote: post #37
hackuser wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surveillance is here to stay and that making it illegal will only serve to hide the microphones. Certainly it's here to stay, but so is murder, theft, fraud, and many other things. We want to maximize the leverage and tools people have to fight it.

Unfortunately you can't put the genie back in the bottle. I don't think there's a real way to fight this in the age of networks and cameras in every pocket. There are many good uses for the ability to instantly recognize and identify anybody from a crowd, as well as bad ones. Probably the easiest way to frustrate these things would be the simplest; only go out in public with substantial facial features obscured or al…

Probably the easiest way to frustrate these things would be the simplest; only go out in public with substantial facial features obscured or altered.

Sorry, going out hidden means you're a terrorist.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/sites/sbs.com.au.news/files/style...

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/295...

http://qz.com/324805/china-has-just-banned-the-burqa-in-its-... ('authorities in the Xinjiang city of Karamy barred anyone wearing burqas, niqabs, hijabs or simply “large beards” from taking public buses.')

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering ('The key argument supporting this proposal is that face-coverings prevent the clear identification of a person, which is both a security risk, and a social hindrance within a society which relies on facial recognition and expression in communication.')

Or a potential criminal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws

"Germany - [..]you may not disguise your identity in public meetings such as demonstrations so the police are able to identify you."

"Russian Federation - it is prohibited to wear masks and any other means of hiding identity during public events"

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